School staff wellbeing and neurodiversity

Catrina Lowri & Iona Jackson

[00:00:00] Hi, Catrina and Iona. Thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Fire podcast. Great to be back with everyone for our season after the summer little break. And thank you so much. I hope you're having a great start to your academic year as well. And Katrina, why don't you start with talking a little bit about exactly what NeuroTeachers is and sort of how it got started?

Well, thank you, Mark. Yes. So my company's called NeuroTeachers. I'm a neurodiversity specialist. I'm a neurodivergent former Sanko and advisory teacher. And I work with schools, universities, colleges, businesses, and nurseries in order to improve inclusion for neurodivergent people. So we offer training, consultancy mentoring, and some work around policy as well.

So this is why it's really useful to be involved. With this whole project, fantastic. And I only tell us a little bit about a jury. I know you've been on before telling us some great information that you've done from research before, but [00:01:00] just for those people who haven't caught that before, just give us a little recap.

Yeah. So my name is Iona and I am director of strategy at a jury. A jury runs surveys in schools in England understanding the experience of pupils, staff and parents. We have a whole host of different topics that we, we cover, but one area that I'm particularly passionate about is kind of staff related things and particularly the experience of staff of different backgrounds.

So that I think the previous times I've been on to talk to you have been around a similar topic. But yeah, really looking forward to chatting today about our work around wellbeing and how it relates to people with different protected characteristics in particular disability. I really love the fact that as we're sort of starting the academic year in the autumn of 2024, I certainly am sort of feeling refreshed after the summer break.

I kind of feel like nothing's going to knock me off my stride, you know, we're nice and relaxed and I know that wasn't quite how I felt back in July. Here's the academic year finished. So I [00:02:00] think understanding how that works within an academic year and how well being sort of often sort of structures itself, whether you like it or not, throughout the academic year as well is going to be an interesting sort of thing.

Just for me, it's certainly to understand, I think, is when it's sort of, let's say, The idea of how it works with different people. So Katrina, can you take us into you sort of mentioned about being a Senko? How did you sort of get into all of those initial roles first of all, and then how did you then sort of get into sort of wanting to create your own organization that was gonna that was gonna help people?

Right? Well, that's a really good question, actually. Actually, I'm meandered into special educational needs. It wasn't a deliberate choice. I had absolutely no intention of working with special needs or additional needs children. I'm, I am dyslexic. Well, that was the thing, the first neurodivergent condition that I knew of was that I was dyslexic.

And I started off working as a modern foreign languages teacher. So I did a secondary PGCE in German, French and history. [00:03:00] at Leeds University. I slightly stuck my head up above the parapet at that point and declared myself to be dyslexic. I gave a talk to my fellow students about dyslexia and what I knew about it.

At the end of the talk, one of my fellow students came to me and said, well, you see, if you're middle class like you, then you're dyslexic. And if you're working class like me. Then you're just a little bit thick. So that crushed me completely. I pushed it down and I decided I wasn't going to have anything to do with special educational needs or declare my neurodivergence from then onwards.

And fast forward about 12 years, I was working as a supply teacher in a particular school and the special educational needs coordinator went off sick. So I was asked to step in and do her job for six weeks. Like it was just kind of like, do you fancy having a [00:04:00] go? And I'd worked with quite a lot of the kids.

I quite enjoyed it. And at the end of the six weeks, I was basically right. This is, these are my people. This is what I want to do. And from then onwards, I decided that I was going to work in special educational needs. I went on to get a master's in autism. I became an advisory teacher for Gloucestershire County Council and I also worked as a special educational needs coordinator as well.

I've worked in special schools as well as a SEND teacher and I absolutely love that. I'm hugely committed to inclusion. And now, one of my big pieces of work, which is why I was kind of drawn to this project. is that I work to support neurodivergent teachers in education. Because when I first started teaching many, many years ago with the story that I just told you I thought I was the only one, but it turns out we've got quite a few neurodivergent teachers.

In fact, I run a Facebook group now, which has got about 1, 200 international [00:05:00] people in there who are all educators who are neurodivergent. We run a support group for them on Facebook. And I'm also working on a project at the moment to start doing some training for initial teacher training organizations to promote understanding of neurodivergent teachers and how they can meet the teaching standards.

That's my full CV there, Mark. Yeah, amazing. And I'm really curious, and you might have quite a good insight into this, like, say, with sort of having so many people in your sort of your world and within your community. But tell me a little bit about the journey and the understanding of the training that you've done, obviously, as well as the passion to support people, but also that living experience of kind of Being in a position of truly understanding rather than just sort of academically understanding.

It'll take us into that world a little bit and how that's worked for you. Like I said, right, I spent many a year purely masking my own neurodivergence in a [00:06:00] massive way to the point where I didn't even realize the full scope of my own needs until, you know, fairly recently, actually. So I taught in the classroom for 21 years full time, another two years part time.

And then I, and then I, you know, started working with neuroteachers full time. Like, I didn't really know what masking was until I did my Master's in Autism, which was, I finished that in 10 years ago now, but I, at that point, you know, I'd been teaching for a fair few, over a decade by that point, you know.

So I didn't have a clue what masking was, and then I started to hear about masking as being this phenomenon, particularly mentioned with regards to autistic women and girls, where you basically act neurotypically, so you just act like everyone else. And the more I read about it, the more I hear about it, the more I thought, oh my god, that's me, that's, that's what I do.

Like, I'm continuously worried that someone's gonna find out, you know, that I teach spelling and I'm really not that good at it, and so [00:07:00] on. And then I started to realise it actually applied to other neurodivergent people. And, you know, I still at that point, like, seriously, until about three years ago, I didn't have a clue that there were any other neurodivergent teachers, I thought I was the only one.

And then I met someone on a training course, I was doing a training course in relational practice, and I met someone and she was an ADHD teacher who absolutely, completely declared the fact that she was ADHD. And start to compare notes with her. And she actually knew somebody else who was an autistic teacher.

And we kind of like got together and had a conversation. We're like, wow, there's like three of us. Imagine if there was like a hundred of us, you know, and now I'm in a group with over a thousand. So it's been, yeah, it's been really, really interesting to have it from, like you say, that kind of point of view of being lived experience, but actually the two things kind of intermingle in so far as if I didn't have the education and training that I have.

around neurodiversity. I probably wouldn't now even [00:08:00] realize the full extent of what's going on with my own strengths and needs. Yeah, it's interesting though, isn't it? The way that you sort of, you need both sides of that coin to fully, I guess, step into it and to be able to help it and understand what's supportive for yourself and then how you can then sort of access all that information to then help other people as well.

So Iona, why don't you take us into into your research and, and, and the things that you've been, you've been covering and then we can come back and discuss it as, as, as a group again. Yeah. So yeah, as I say, we, we run surveys with parents, pupils and staff. This project was all about staff members and it was all about particularly the wellbeing of staff members and looking at the wellbeing of staff members of different groups.

So we looked at from kind of overall wellbeing. So how do you feel at the moment, physically and mentally through to quality of sleep feelings of stress, feelings of overwork? Whether or not they were being supported by others within the organization with their mental wellbeing. And then finally we asked them about how [00:09:00] excited they, how often they feel excited by the work that they do.

Which is a slightly tangential element of wellbeing, but we felt it was a really important thing for us to review just to see kind of where are the, where is that kind of strength and where, where are people getting their energy from alongside those kind of more. physical, more kind of squarely within the box of well being.

So that was, that was kind of where we started. And we looked at kind of overall data. So what does the picture look like in general for staff in England? And then we looked at it by role. And then we went through different protected characteristics. So in our data set, we capture across the different categories of protected characteristics that are outlined in the Equalities Act.

We, we capture data on people's individual identities so that we can gather that all up and look at it as a kind of national picture. And what we found was not great. The the the overall level we [00:10:00] could see that less than four in 10 staff reported that they were feeling well. So at that kind of really big level, basic overall, how are you feeling?

Less than four in 10 staff reported that they were feeling well. And a quarter reported that they were feeling not very well or not well at all. And when we looked at it by role, we could see that across the board. So all those measures that I just mentioned, overall, well being sleep overwork and so on teachers had the lowest well being every single measure that we looked at, other types of role, so leadership or administrative and so on, other types of role had more positive results than teachers, with the exception of that very last one, how often do you feel excited by the work that you do?

And that was something really interesting to us as a kind of As I said, like, where are you getting your energy from? I think that was a really, really interesting learning that came out as, even though this job is hard and the job, the work of teachers is stressful and is, is, is at times too much. They're still more [00:11:00] likely to feel excited by it than perhaps people who have a less classroom facing role.

But the, the main thing that we're here to talk about is the, is the kind of the, the, the detail that we went into around the protected characteristics. And there was, as I said, we went across the different protected characteristics. So looking at gender, sexual orientation disability ethnicity, and, and so on.

When we looked at disability, that was the area with the biggest disparity between the majority group and minority group. Consistently across all of the measures, those who don't have a disability were much more positive than disabled staff. And I have to note here that we, we, for this analysis, we grouped Both kind of visible and invisible disabilities or physical and and kind of neuro diversity related differences.

We, we, we grouped them together because this is the first time we've gathered this data. So at the time we only had a [00:12:00] relatively small group of Staff who identified as disabled in the future, we should be able to drill into that in more detail and look at the differences between the two. But either way we see that, yeah, among disabled staff, it's a picture that is bleak at the national level is more bleak when it comes to disabled staff.

Yeah, I guess. I guess in some ways, like you say, it's disappointing but it's probably maybe not surprising in, in lots of ways. And the one thing I just want to follow up on, first of all, Katrina, is when you were able to realise that you had a group of people that you were able to identify with, because, like you say, people sort of being honest about what their disability was, if that's the, sort of, the correct term that we can use, sort of, generally for this.

Were you able to then change how you went about your role in order to sort of do your job better or to feel like the environment was more supportive for you? Yes, definitely. I think knowing that you're not the only one with that particular protected [00:13:00] characteristic makes a massive difference because it gives you that psychological safety.

I mean, there's safety in numbers, like everyone says that all the time, don't they, as a well known phrase. But there really is when you feel like you're not. you know, a unicorn in a situation, then you, you feel a lot more accepted just to know that somebody else can go, yeah, me too, even though those people didn't have the same neurodivergent needs as me, because everyone's neurodivergent need is different.

It was, it was, it was a really important learning curve and the other thing I think that is actually very important is it's interesting that Iona said that there were so few people who identified as being disabled. It's a big problem within the unions to get people to tick that box saying they're disabled, particularly if they have a neurodivergent need, mental health need, or any other kind of invisible disability.

Because, and you know, there are several pieces of data that [00:14:00] bear this out because of the stigma that's attached to the word disabled and it took me personally a very long time to identify as disabled, even though I very much work along that social model line, you know. I don't consider, you know, neurodiversity is a social construct, it's a social movement, this isn't a medical diagnosis, but I am disabled because the world isn't cut out for me, and it is that way round, but it still took me a long time before I felt confident enough to tick that box on the union form.

To say that I'm disabled. And I think one of the things which is interesting there is like you say, the idea of safety in numbers and being able to identify with people was then supportive. However, when you are a child or certainly going through school like and, and, and also sort of in the same way as you just said, it also becomes a hindrance as well because.

Suddenly being someone within the school [00:15:00] who then says, Oh, actually, I have ADHD or I'm dyslexic or whatever, that suddenly means that you're put in a different box, whether you like it or not. And people's perceptions change in the way that you're then taught or the way that you're sort of. Work within that environment suddenly becomes very different, isn't it?

So you suddenly have people around you that you can identify with and probably be supportive with. But also, like I say, it gives you that sort of one step removed, which then takes away from actually the benefit that maybe came to begin with. And I guess that's something I know that maybe you sort of you could see is you start to start to get a lot of that data coming through in those different areas.

Yeah. And as I say, this was this year was the first year that we had Ask these specific questions. So in our, in our dataset for a lot of it, we go back we go back quite a few years now, but we we hadn't ever asked specifically these kind of wellbeing questions. What we had done instead was asking about different factors that might relate to positive or negative wellbeing.

But we, we decided to make this kind of [00:16:00] explicit at this point, how are you feeling? How stressed are you? How overworked are you? And so on. And so. Yeah, the, the, as we go on, we'll get kind of much bigger Groups of people for each of those different categories. But yeah, it is, I think it is really, really challenging.

And obviously Katrina was all about unions. We're, we're a third party survey provider. We're a little bit safer. There's, there's, there's much more limited stigma attached to kind of telling a box on a online survey that from a company that you don't interact with very often who you are and, and, and kind of how you identify but even so, I, I imagine that there will be some in all of our questions, we enable a kind of, I don't want to disclose this.

I prefer not to say. But there, there is, is likely to be even where we say, is this a visible or invisible disability, there's going to be the, the further ones, which are, I'm not even going to tell you you, you, you might, you might look at me, there might be some people you [00:17:00] look at and you already know that they're disabled.

Perhaps they're a wheelchair user or that there's some kind of. there's something telling you visually that this person is disabled, then there's the category who they know, and perhaps they should choose to share that with you. And then there's the category who maybe they don't even know, or they haven't they haven't had a diagnosis yet, or they do know, but they they don't feel kind of safe enough to share that information.

And I also want to dive a little bit into the idea of The environment that we're in against the measures that are put in place to support people. So you sort of gathered all of this information, you kind of start to get a really good picture of of who's affected and why and and the sort of the reasons why that might be and the different sort of demographics as you go through.

Were you able to sort of find out a little bit more about what would actually help? And those sorts of trends. So I'm assuming that you know, overwork stress. All those sorts of things are going to be a big factor. But then are you able to [00:18:00] find out what people would like to happen in order to make that a sort of a better working environment?

Or is it just one of those things that you have that information? And then we sort of come to the conclusions through these conversations. Bit of a mix. So we have stuff at the kind of national level. So we know kind of What are the elements of the experience that are going to have a stronger or weaker relationship with those wellbeing measures?

And workload is a huge one. Leadership is a huge one. So your relationship with your leader have, has a stronger impact on kind of wellbeing and, and those kinds of measures than for example the benefits package that is, that is offered in your organization. There's, there's kind of parts of the experience that for everybody The evidence from our data and from elsewhere shows that there is a stronger relationship between certain things that are happening and Your kind of wellbeing, I think we don't have at the moment, we don't have a kind of quantified data set from our data that tells us [00:19:00] for those with a physical disability or a neurodivergent member of staff, what are, what, what does the data tell us is those things.

But then that's where people like Katrina come in. We, we my, I always say that my role is kind of find the problems. And find the people who have ideas about the solution. And so it's been a really lovely collaboration with Katrina and the others who contributed on the other characteristics into the report on kind of what should we do about it?

But yeah, I think Katrina has got tons that, that she can share here. Yeah, I can imagine. We'll just jump straight in Katrina in one second. My final thoughts on this is the fact that I always have this sort of sense of the of the plaster and the and the the bat in that sense of in on one side you have this kind of look, we've got all this help for you here.

Look, it's a sticky plaster. Here's the safe is the sort of the You know, the, the safety pox in and the first aid but we're still going to keep smacking you around the legs with a wooden bat, because that's [00:20:00] what we're doing. We're still going to make you work all these hours. We're still going to put the workload on.

We're still going to do all those things, but you've kind of got a package, which we're able to do because we should do. But the one doesn't actually stop the other. If you weren't being hit around the legs with the bat, you wouldn't need the safety package. And by the same token, you shouldn't have been in that position to begin with.

So this is where I get really excited with the sorts of things that you're doing, Katrina, because. Understanding all of that and having a real understanding of what is possible even within the system that we're in, I guess, is what makes the biggest difference. So yeah, take us into your thoughts and what you've been able to do as part of this whole thing.

Yeah, well, I did I wrote another an article for an organization called Pixel where I did four case studies of different organizations which had worked with their neurodivergent or otherwise disabled staff and, and kind of reasonable adjustments that they've made in order to make the working environment more accessible for them.

And it was really fascinating One of [00:21:00] the things that came out really strongly when it came to the neurodivergent staff was an example of a primary school where they had wanted to actually improve inclusion for the neurodivergent children. But in doing so, what they'd done is they talked to their staff and they had two members of staff who identified as being neurodivergent, both of whom who had a diagnosis, who were happy to talk to staff about this.

And eventually they did an assembly about neurodivergence and talking about their own needs for the children. It had a phenomenal effect on the children in, in the school and then also on the wider community because one of the, the children in the audiences at the assembly, parents worked for a local newspaper and then this was picked up by the local newspaper and they started to kind of do a regular assembly then where they invited neurodivergent people from the [00:22:00] community in to talk with the school and this had kind of such a massive positive effect not only on the children but also on the staff as well because then subsequently there are other members of staff who you know realized ADHD and were able to ask for the kind of adjustments that they needed.

So that is a massive positive story that we have. There's some really great going work going on. As I say, my, my my group is international. Australia seems to be doing a really, really good job insofar as there are all kinds of grants and adjustments and adjustments to working hours that are available in Australia.

We do have the possibility in this country, you are allowed to work for flexible working hours on your first day at work now, as far as legislation is concerned. from the first of April last year. So everyone has the right to ask for flexible working hours. The, the question that I'm getting quite a lot from organizations is [00:23:00] how do we make that work and have people still meet their teaching standards?

And there has been some really, really creative solutions that I've seen. And particularly, I must say actually from private schools, but then I suppose they've got more, they've got more they've got more facilities at, at their fingertips, let's just say. But yeah, there's some really amazing pieces of work that are going on at the moment.

And what I, I want to emphasize is as I only sort of picked up on it, sometimes the neurodivergent member of staff, or the, the, the member of staff with an invisible disability, A, might not, might not identify as disabled. B, might not actually know themselves that they have that need. They might not be at the point where they even feel confident enough to go forward for diagnosis.

And then C, you still have to meet their need regardless of whether they actually have a diagnosis or not because that's what the Equality Act says. So if we want to really talk about staff retention, firstly [00:24:00] disabled members of staff have a huge amount to offer because it's a really great role model for the children.

But also as well, like, you know, particularly if you are a neurodivergent member of staff and you have a special interest around a subject, why not stand up in front of a class for six hours a day and talk about that subject? I mean, that's a brilliant example to everybody. But also as well, like, we have a recruitment and retention crisis in our schools at the moment.

So if we can think of creative ways of allowing our neurodivergent and otherwise disabled members of staff to still be able to contribute, to still get that absolute joy of standing up and working with these children on a day to day basis, because that is what motivates us. I mean, you know, the data kind of bears that out.

Then it's a really amazing opportunity for schools. And, and that's why I'm excited to do the work that I do. And I think just opening these conversations is so important, isn't it? Because like you [00:25:00] say, the creativity does come from within the schools. It comes from these conversations. And like you said, the joy of being able to share a story, where it didn't come from we need to set a piece of work.

It came from the fact that I, as a member of staff, stood up and was honest and was able to share my journey and understand. Sort of explain how I work within this environment. That's much more powerful. It's like sort of project based learning where you're all doing it together. You know, there are different ways that you can do it and you can set these things out.

And the thing about doing this podcast is, is I want that ability just to be able to say, You know, we might not have that silver bullet, which actually says the system's going to look different for everybody, but everyone is different anyway. So therefore, you know, creating the environment within your school, within your class, within the next conversation you're going to have with somebody that's going to affect their world and therefore collectively our world together is a really sort of powerful thing.

And I think, you know, seeing and understanding how that works. You say, I mean, it's come from data. It's come from people starting to [00:26:00] be more honest and sharing those particular things. And like you said, that's where we all sort of fit in, you know, being a third party organization gives you maybe a little bit more insight than maybe, like I said, within the union or whether it happens to be within a school environment as well.

I think it's a really, really good thing. And are you able to share one of those stories? You sort of said that there were some great things that you've that it happens or a way that they were able to sort of to make that work in a different way. Yeah, well, I think one of the things that is quite important, particularly for neurodivergent members of staff is being able to have your own environment in order to teach in.

So in, in busy secondary schools and some kind of quite, you know, oversubscribed primary schools, a member of staff might not have their own classroom to work in. But. Having a space, an allocated space somewhere that is a place that you can put your stuff and make your mark and lay it out the way in which it works for your [00:27:00] mind and your neurodivergent needs.

is really quite important. So one example that, that I heard of, which I thought was absolutely brilliant was there was a secondary school, which again, they had a rotation of different teach teachers. So they had, I think they had eight classrooms and 12 maths teachers. So it meant that, you know, there were some people on PPA and there were some people who were teaching in the classroom and you never ended up with your own class.

And this was kind of chaotic and it was kind of quite stressful for everybody. But they also had two neurodivergent members of staff. Because, I mean, look, statistically speaking, there are more neurodivergent people who are attracted to maths, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love maths as a neurodivergent person, but there were two neurodivergent members of staff in this particular school.

So what they did is they basically started another staff room that was specifically for the maths teachers and it was kind of an old unused back of the cupboard type area, but they found out that there was a, an artificial [00:28:00] wall in between it so that they, they, they got that removed during the summer holidays and made it into a, An extra staff room with and modulized it so that effectively each member staff had their own workspace And that has made a massive difference, not only to the well being of the neurodivergent autistic members of staff, but also other members of staff found it quite calming.

And they also decided that it would be a good idea for members of staff to be able to take their PPA flexibly so that they could work hybrid on those particular days. So if they had PPA in the morning, for example, they'd have a start where they wouldn't have to cover registration. on those days that would be covered by somebody else and that meant that they had the opportunity to work from home, and they found out actually that it made quite a big difference to absenteeism it improved the attendance of the staff, it improved the well being, and then actually it had, had a huge knock on [00:29:00] effect for the department as a whole and, you know, how they got on within the department, you know, that sort of like relational experience.

So I thought that was an absolutely brilliant story and it just goes to prove the kind of creativity that you can do and you know what, like, state schools are just so amazing at just finding these, this, oh, I'm just going to find this extra piece of space. I wonder what's behind this cupboard, you know?

I'm just going to take a hammer to this wall and see what's there. That's not, that's not advisable. It wasn't partitioned. Yeah, exactly and they did get actually get the caretakers to do that. I mean, I'm not suggesting that you take Fantastic picture in my head of what's going on And I think the other thing that I was already sort of took away from that is the fact that it really is a two way Street, isn't it?

It's very easy to get bogged down in the Oh, if only we had another classroom, or if only it was like this, or I'm feeling overwhelmed and it's not working for me and I [00:30:00] don't know what to do. And as soon as you can stand far enough back or hear a story like this and think, ah, now is there some way around this?

Is there something I can do? Is there someone I can ask? Is there a conversation? Is there a room like you say that no one ever particularly uses or we think there might be something that we've heard of which might just make this difference and then it becomes proactive and I think the the energy that goes with this we talked about being excited about what's going on and everything as well I think that really does make all the difference and so I I think that sort of being proactive with yourself as well as that waiting for a leadership or whoever to sort of come and say we've got a solution for your problem I think sort of that sort of you.

two way street is a really, really key thing. And yeah, I look forward to sort of hearing more of those things as it goes through. And I know, I know, like I say, once you have more data and you have more sort of areas that you're able to sort of ask questions around, I guess that's going to be something which you'll be able to target a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think even the, yeah, just responding to [00:31:00] that, that point you made there about it being the kind of the proactive side of it, there's the kind of policy side of it, there's the, what is the trust doing? What is the school doing? What is the kind of the what is the Organization doing that is creating the environment that will work for you.

And that is hugely important. I, I remember in a previous project working with Ruth Golding from disability ed. And she, she gave a, an example, which sounds. absurd but the it, yeah, it's sort of basically someone, there was, there was a situation where there was a wheelchair user and a non wheelchair user being required to teach on the first floor.

And both of them were required to teach on the first floor. Because that was fair that we give, sorry, because it was equal. We're, we're, we're treating them equally. We're going to ask both of them to teach on the first floor. That's where the classroom is. Might be treating them equally, but it's not treating them fairly.

And I think, I think there is a huge kind of, there is a huge element [00:32:00] around that and making sure that there is that sort of, you're, you're not missing anything kind of really straightforward with the, with the people that you're interacting with where, you Of course, this is never going to work and a moment of thought would have would have would have solved that, but then going deeper and what are those more creative and kind of more yeah, out of the box things to do.

But I think, yeah, the the policy side of it is and the kind of that those around creating that environment. Is so, so important. And there is, there is the side around the kind of individuals either fighting their corner advocate for themselves or kind of looking for those little wins, but I think with what Katrina is doing and having this network and having those people talking to each other in the Facebook group or whatever is those little wins stop being pockets in the corner, they start being ideas that can kind of spread and, and, and sort of, yeah, build on from each other.

Yeah. And if you've got any sort of experience of that, Katrina, in terms of something that you've heard that people have then shared through the community [00:33:00] or a particular story or something which has been sort of helpful. Yeah, I mean, it's an incredibly collaborative group and really active. I mean, you know just on an almost daily basis, there'll be somebody who goes on, you know, I'm having this problem with this.

What can you suggest? And there'll be, you know, 16 or 17 different people who will jump in to do that. So it has been, it's, it's It's a support group, that's what I set it up for. You know, because like I said, I thought it was a unicorn. But actually, there's quite a few unicorns. I mean, statistically speaking, there should be quite a few people in teaching who are, who are neurodivergent.

It makes sense, doesn't it? But yeah, I mean, you know, you'll get examples of people who need to go for a job interview, for example. And they might have a, they might have social anxiety. They might be naturally an introvert, but they know they can do the job. How can they go about it? What kind of? You know, what kind of work rounds could there be to make sure that I feel less anxious about the fact that I have this job [00:34:00] interview and, you know, then you'll have various other people in the group who will say, Oh, well, you know, I have a job interview, I had a job interview and the way I worked around it was, you know, I made sure that I had, that I prepared myself really well, made sure that I had all of my things out the night before.

I made sure that I had a walk with the dog in the morning so that I felt really regulated. I did everything I possibly could, you know, had a shower and, you know, washed my hair and made sure that I had the comfortable clothes on, et cetera, to make sure I was there. I prepared myself. I thought of small talk conversation I could have as well and practice that with a friend, because there is going to be an element, there's going to be an element of, you know, trying to, to present your best social self.

And a lot of us aren't very good at small talk, for example. There was just loads, there've just been loads of really lovely examples of supporting one another. [00:35:00] And, you know, it is one of the things that is a big, is a big problem with disabled people is it's not just the fact that it's quite difficult to retain us as members of staff, but also it is quite hard for you to go through something like an interview process because interview processes are inherently quite social.

experiences. And if you've got a social communication difference, then, you know, you might come across as incredibly blunt because you're not the sort of person who's standing around, you know, making small talk, et cetera. You might get straight to the point and only give short answers because you've been told that this is only a 15 minute interview and you don't want to waffle.

So yeah, it's really great. The level of peer support on the group and those sorts of tips have been really helpful, I think, for other people. And then they come back on and go, Oh, I got the job. I think it's amazing. And like I say, the wide variety of support it can be, like I say, from a little bit of Of information or a little bit of shared experience to that [00:36:00] kind of, like I say, you might find a way to find a new room or whatever that happens to be, you know, from that sort of policy level all the way down to, you know, how am I going to come across as interesting?

I'm going to an event in October and it's all with creators and podcasters and people on video. And so many of them are saying, you know, the thing they're worried about the most is the fact that they feel quite introverted. They're not quite sure how to get the conversation started or what they're going to do.

And because so many people have spoken about it, we're gonna just sort of find an area where everyone who's feeling like that can just go to one particular part of the room when we first get there for the first party. And because we kind of all know we're all in that situation, we're in a position to say, okay we're, we're, you know.

We're even starting from a place of knowing before you've said anything before you need to do anything or whatever it's going to be And just that sort of collectiveness which I think takes us full circle almost really katrina back to what you said to start with Just having another member of staff or someone just kind of entering your world In a way that you identify with and that sort of friendly sort [00:37:00] of Starting point, because at the end of the day, whether we're talking policy or whether we're talking, you know, the nitty gritty of things you've got to do.

We're all humans. We're all interacting. We're all trying to do the best we possibly can. And I think when we're we're meeting on that level, and we're talking on that level, and we're empathetic on that level, then all sorts of things can happen in a positive way and then whatever the stigmatism, the labels, the research, whatever that happens to be, all that sort of disappears to a point where it's just kind of, what are we doing now?

How can we help each other? And how can we sort of move forward? And I think at that point, everyone feels like they've got a power to sort of To be their best selves, which is, I guess, essentially what we're trying to do, and certainly within the education profession, trying to help that with the people that we're, that we're involved in as well.

So yeah, thanks so much for sharing all of those things. And I'm always interested about people's school experience or, or something, a teacher that they've had that's sort of been supportive in that way, especially when you're working within that sort of school experience. So, Katrina, tell us something about that, which is [00:38:00] maybe stuck with you, but maybe also that you sort of brought into your sort of adult learning as well.

About my about a teacher who I found inspirational. Yeah. I had a year six teacher called Ms. White, who I probably would describe what she did as kind of relational practice. Now she really got to know us as individuals, so I felt, you felt like you mattered as a, as a, as a person. And like, I've just been, I've been diagnosed as di as dyslexic when I was in year five.

And I'd had a teacher who'd done pretty much the opposite. And I kind of felt quite crushed by the whole experience. I had quite a lot of shame attached to my dyslexia. But Miss White made it all right, if I'm going to, like, be a poet about it. And she had belief in me that I could fulfill my full potential.

And. She would listen in such a way, and then, and then kind of bring [00:39:00] up things in conversation. Like, she'd know the name of your hamster, for example, your guinea pig. She'd know what football team you supported. And she'd know exactly the right time to slip that into conversation. And I think that's something that I really took with me because I had a bit of a journey when it came, comes to classroom management, but I have found that relational practice is extremely effective, especially when you're working with children who have additional needs, specifically those who've had trauma or neurodivergent difficulties.

Yeah, I love that. And I think that human connection is that and like say, just knowing that person and just taking that extra time is such a powerful thing. And Iona, you're going to take us into a favorite piece of advice you were given or some or some advice that you would sort of now give your younger self looking back.

Yeah, I am the Yeah, I think the best piece of advice. Or the piece of advice that I think about the most [00:40:00] frequently that I have received. I'm not entirely sure when I first got this piece of feedback or this piece of advice, but it's, it's something that I've heard a few times and it's around sort of qualifying language.

So I am female. I went to a girl's school. I I, Tend to that there were elements of the way that I communicate with people that I think have been kind of hard coded into me through kind of nurture and through kind of what's expected of me in my kind of place in the world. And one of those things is if I'm asking someone to do something for me, I will say, would it be okay if you, could you just sort of the words like that, kind of, rather than stating what I need and saying, I need, I need this thing sort of doing it a bit more timid way and packaging it around, like if you're not too busy, if you don't mind and, and things like that.

If it's something that I need that someone else can, can provide me with [00:41:00] being a bit more direct and being a bit more kind of yeah, trying not to be around the bush as much When, when there's something that I, it's within my right to, to want this thing or to need this thing. And so yeah, not, not kind of giving people the option.

Obviously they can say no, they can, even if I'm being direct, they can still say no, and they'll have a good reason for it and so on, but rather than giving, rather than starting with that invitation for kind of, Oh, she doesn't mind if I do this or not. So if I do mind, I should make it clear that that is kind of what I'm, what I'm, what I'm actually asking.

And. Can I just follow up with that? Was there sort of a lightbulb moment of kind of, I didn't realise that was the way I was going about it. Was it, was it sort of that sense of, Oh yeah, now I understand how I'm coming across, but also how that might then look or what the result might be beyond that. Yeah, it and I still do it, but I try and catch myself and I think I'm getting better at it.

But one, one thing I think is, makes it really clear to me is when there's been a written ask. So if I've sent someone an [00:42:00] email and I've asked them to do something and then they come back and they sort of, they feel that their job is done or they feel that I, that what they have sort of done would be satisfactory to me.

And I had a few instances of kind of, they're not. listening to me? Why aren't they listening to me? And then actually I had the evidence right in front of me because I didn't actually ask them. I gave them this sort of roundabout speech around this thing that might be nice. They heard me say this thing might be nice, but they didn't hear me say, can you do this thing?

And so I think that's, I think that's the, the, the sort of, it starts with a sort of frustration and they're like, what's not, what's happening here? Why, why is everyone ignoring me? Why am I not being kind of respected? Why my wish is not being respected. Oh, because they're not actually being communicated properly.

Yeah, I could really identify with that. I spend so much time knowing what's going on in my head, but being able to make sure that I'm articulating that in a way that the people around me understand that as well. Just because you know your, your world so well, don't you? You're in it all the time, but yeah, that communication skill is something is [00:43:00] really, really key.

So yeah, thanks for sharing that. It's really sort of, sort of strikes me as something I can, I can really improve on as well as. Identify with as well. Katrina I believe there's a resource you'd like to share and we always sort of mentioned it could be anything from a video, a song, book, film, podcast, but what is it that you've decided to share with us?

Right, well, it's my current hyperfocus at the moment as an ADHD person. My current hyperfocus is Beth of Hardwick and this is a little guide that I got from Hardwick Hall, which I visited on the weekend. I have no affiliation with the National Trust, by the way, I just like National Trust properties.

And this is a pitch book, right? So, I like maps, and I like pictures being in my book as well. Sorry, I'm going to just do it like that. Okay. So basically, yeah, I'm a grown woman with a master's degree. And I don't read books, I use audio books, or I use books that are guides with pictures in them.

Because for me, I [00:44:00] find it much easier to digest what I'm reading if it has visuals in it. And I thought even though this, this is a very thin history book, as you can see, only a few pages in it, it is very much a potted guide to the life and times of Bess Hardwick, who was the second richest woman in Elizabethan England, by the way, in case you didn't know.

And it just goes to show that I am a neurodivergent adult. I obviously, you know, I have a degree that's in German history. So. I'm that level with my history understanding, but I still would much rather read this picture guide than a large, you know, 500 page biography. I have actually read a 500 page biography of Bess of Hardwick, but I read it using an audiobook, because I don't read big chunks of text anymore, insofar as I have the technology.

And I really love that, the ability to be able to do what works for you and why would you read a large amount of text if [00:45:00] it's really something you don't enjoy or you find really, really, really tricky? You know, like I say, when there are so many other options now as well, and there are so many people, especially within the education world with lots of different ways that you can, you know, support people to make sure that if it's just the information and the exploration of what they want to learn do it in a way that works for you.

It's what we do generally as adults, we find our way to do that. And I think certainly being able to bring that into the education environment and within a classroom for that matter, whether you're a teacher being able to bring that in or a student that needs it, it just makes all the difference to what that learning feels like.

And I've even noticed it with my daughter recently. She was definitely put off reading at school because she had to read this particular series and do it in this way. And then you had to do this and nine. You know, as a sick former, she suddenly realized that it can just be fun. There's all sorts of things out there, which really enjoyable.

And and I think, like I say, try not to turn people off for whatever reason that happens to be and support them with that encouragement is something really, really important. Now, as we round off, Fire [00:46:00] is obviously something really important to us, which by that would mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment.

What is it that strikes you when you when you hear these words? And I think I know you're going to start us off with this. Yes, we we divvied up the big words. So I'm gonna do feedback. And then I'll come back at the end and I'll do empowerment. But yeah, I think for feedback, the best example I could think of is actually the way that Adurio Runs itself as a company.

So I've worked in a few different organizations and I think I might be on my fourth office job. And this is my, this is my first office job where feedback and transparency is at the core of the way that the company is run. And it's something that we're quite kind of obsessive about. And now being on the leadership team, it's something that I am kind of, it is part of my job to be.

embodying a strong sense of feedback and transparency and so on. And I think one of the, one of the things that's really stood out to me [00:47:00] when I think about my time at Adurio versus my time in other organizations is people know what's happening, so they don't need to speculate. And the amount of time that I've spent in the past kind of gossiping in the pub, like, Oh, do you think this is happening?

Like, Oh, we haven't hit our targets. Is there going to be layoffs? That, that, that kind of like speculation and that kind of gossip, I think. You strip out a huge amount of wasted time if everyone can just be sort of transparent with each other and can sort of share that information and, and, and you're coming at something from the same point of understanding.

It doesn't, we haven't eradicated it. There are still times where you, you think you're on the same page or you sort of, you shared something and it's, and so on. But I think, I think having, I think a ju is for me, like a, a surprisingly good example, and I say surprisingly. Because I haven't ever seen another company like it, rather than because I don't know why a jury would be able to do it.

But it's a surprisingly good example of somewhere where if you really invest in making [00:48:00] feedback, part of your culture, you can just save an awful lot of head space and energy and, and get the job done better. Yeah. I love it. Katrina, take us into the, into the next section. Inspiration. I think I'm going to go back to Bess, you know, just because she is my current hyper focus.

But as I said, she was an entrepreneurial, independent businesswoman 450 years ago. And it was quite patriarchal in those days. And don't get me wrong. She did marry the patriarchy four times before she became an independent businesswoman. And she inherited well, but she made the most. of everything that she had available to her.

And she came from quite humble beginnings, but made a massive, her, her education was incredibly important to her. And she invested in that with her own money, but also had support from other people about it. And one of the most inspirational stories that I find about her, and this goes back to the innovation that we're talking earlier about, about solving your own problems is she wanted to build her [00:49:00] house.

And she wanted to make it, you know, economical to be able to do that. And in those days, glass was incredibly expensive. So rather than buy glass from somewhere, she just founded her own glassworks. And did it that way. And that meant that she also, she, you know, could get the glass at cost, but also she could bring other people around and say, Oh, do you like the glass in my windows?

You know, do you fancy buying some glass from my new glassworks? Sort of thing. And I just think that, that kind of, that, that kind of, way of thinking of things in a different way is something that we can do. Like, like those people who have said previously about, you know, finding a cupboard that had a partition wall in it and realizing it was much bigger and could be turned into a new office.

You know, I mean, like I said, they didn't take the wall down themselves. They worked in health, under health and safety rules, but state school teachers are so good at thinking. If they're given the time And the [00:50:00] opportunity and the encouragement to do that, they're great at thinking of innovative ways to solve problems.

And that's, you know, and that's what Bess did. And that's why she's such an inspiration to me. The other thing is as well, resilience, if I'm going to go on to the next one here, the reason that, I mean, in terms of resilience again, her motto was patience over fortitude. Patience over fortitude. And she was an incredibly long lived woman insofar as in those days, she lived to 81, which is probably like the nowadays equivalent of living to like 120, like, you know, there was plague in those days.

They didn't live that long, but she did. And, you know, she, she lived to kind of fulfill her dream of being able to buy back her family lands, which her brother had lost through. through being terribly indebted. And she lived to build her own house on her own land, which again is incredible for a woman from the, from that time.

And to be able to go up [00:51:00] the driveway of that house on her 70th birthday and then still have another decade to live in it as well. Yeah, so she's really, she's really inspirational for the resilience. And I think that that, what that, that teaches us as, as teachers is that we are often planting, you know, that old phrase about we're planting the acorns that we'll never see grow into oaks.

And you could be like, you could be like someone's year one teacher and have absolutely no idea, but you have an inkling that that child is actually, you know, got a thought or some potential. And the reason that what's holding them back is that they've got a hidden disability or a neurodivergent need.

And you put those things in place. And then they come back to you years later when they go on to secondary school and say, actually, do you know what, I'm doing really well now, and this and this has happened. Or you see them as an adult in the supermarket, like, you know, 20 years later, randomly, and they go, actually, you know, what you, Those things that you put into place really helped me to get to the point.

And [00:52:00] this is what I'm doing now. This is what my life is like. This is how happy I am. This is what I'm doing in my career. So yeah, having that resilience and that kind of patience, I think is, is an incredibly important part of everything that we do in terms of teaching. Yeah. I love it. And I'm going to finish off with some empowerment.

Yeah, I will. After I suggest that Katrina, you send this podcast to Mrs. White when it goes out so she can hear. That you were that acorn. Yeah, on the, on the empowerment front. This is, this is something that could have been that piece of advice when the answer to the question, what's some really good advice that you've received?

I have a feeling Katrina and I didn't share with each other what we were going to say. We just shared what, which bit we'll, we'll, we'll tackle. I think Katrina, you might like this one. I when I was at uni, I was, I did a placement year where I went and worked in industry for a year between my second and final year.

I had a friend whose mom. Was I'm not sure the exact name of the profession, but like a style consultant, she would kind of help people figure out what's like [00:53:00] the best look, what, what makes them feel most comfortable, what makes them kind of, yeah, what's their style sort of thing. And I remember heading down to London To go to an interview for the company that eventually hired me.

And I had chatted to my friend and her mom was there to pick her up from uni and said like, Oh, I'm a bit nervous about the interview. I think I probably kind of, I've got this sort of suit that I'm going to wear and I'm not sure that I'm going to feel comfortable in it. I need to straighten my hair because I don't want to kind of.

I don't want to appear as this kind of like, I don't, I don't want to look weird. I don't want to sort of stand out and sort of anything like that. And my, and my friend's mom was like, what are you talking about? Your hair, like your hair is part of your identity. Go wear the curly hair, be the girl when they're at the end of the day.

And they've spoken to 20, 20 year olds. Do you remember that girl, girl with the curly hair? That's going to be the thing that helps you to stand out when they're sort of sorting, sorting this out. And I, whenever I kind of feel, cause I'm. I'm very short and I'm kind of, [00:54:00] I look quite young for my age and all of these things.

Whenever I have these moments of kind of people are going to think, what is she doing here? Why is she having this conversation? I remember that conversation where, where my friend's mum just stopped me and said, no, this is, This is part of you and this is what part of what makes you special. So own it.

And, and then I got that job anyway. So yeah, I think maybe, maybe because I have my curly hair, I don't know. But yeah, that's, that's my kind of moment of empowerment. I love it.

It's incredible and I think and I love it because it's it so many people will be able to identify with that in a really positive Way, you know Like say you thought it was one thing and it turns out to be another and someone else points that out to you And then yeah, I absolutely love it. I think it's so so really really powerful in, in such a straightforward way.

But like all these things, they're not straightforward because they're so sort of heartfelt and they're so personal, aren't they? That it kind of really sort of hits you right at the core, which then can change a whole directory of, of [00:55:00] trajectory of where you're going or how you feel about yourself and how that moves through.

So thank you both for such a fascinating conversation and for all the great work that you're doing. Just before we go, Do tell us where people can find that more. We'll start with you Katrina, and then, and then we can I'll come to you, Iona, and you can share yours as well. So what's the website that people need to go to first of all, Katrina?

My website is www. neuroteachers. com and I'm available on pretty much all social media. So Blue Sky Threads, Instagram Facebook and TikTok all as at neuroteachers or at neuroteachers UK. Fantastic. And Iona. Yeah. So our website, Adurio's website is home. adurio. com. And I'm personally available.

LinkedIn is the best place to, to catch me. But yeah, we can share links perhaps to, to, to put out with it. Exactly. Yeah. We'll have all these in the show notes. So yeah, do just click through there and find all those things. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time [00:56:00] and such a wonderful conversation.

And I think so many people are going to get so much positivity out of it. And yeah, thank you so much indeed. Thanks so much. Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.