The Hidden Crisis in Foster Care: Advocating for Educational Equity

Speaker A 00:00:00

I'm very unique in what I do.

Speaker A 00:00:02

There's not very many educational advocates specifically for foster parent or for foster kids out there right now.

Speaker A 00:00:10

We have half a million kids in foster care at any given time right now.

Speaker A 00:00:16

That's a lot of kids.

Speaker A 00:00:17

And we don't talk about them.

Speaker A 00:00:19

Foster kids right now are not graduating well.

Speaker A 00:00:24

Like, they may graduate, they may not.

Speaker A 00:00:26

They may not even have a high school diploma.

Speaker A 00:00:29

When they age out of care, the more they're out of the classroom, the more likely they fall behind.

Speaker A 00:00:35

The more they fall behind, the more likely they are to drop out or not graduate.

Speaker A 00:00:39

So it's a cycle.

Speaker A 00:00:41

Our kids aren't ready at 18 to be on their own.

Speaker A 00:00:45

Just even being removed from their home is trauma.

Speaker A 00:00:49

And then you add in whatever was going on in their home that caused the removal.

Speaker A 00:00:54

It's really hard for kids with trauma to have those feelings because they're just stuck in that fight, flight or fight mode and they don't know how to move out of that.

Speaker A 00:01:07

They weren't pushing this kid on new goals.

Speaker A 00:01:10

So I was talking with him and he's like, well, I'm just too stupid.

Speaker A 00:01:13

I'm never going to learn anything.

Speaker A 00:01:16

So, you know, why even bother trying?

Speaker A 00:01:19

And it was.

Speaker A 00:01:19

It broke my heart.

Speaker A 00:01:21

We have a lot of kids who are removed from their homes just because their parents are poor and they tend to be kids of color.

Speaker A 00:01:29

To even celebrate a small win gives us that feeling of, oh, we can do more.

Speaker B 00:01:36

Hello and welcome back.

Speaker B 00:01:37

That was Sharon Dunlevy, and she is an educational advocate for children in foster care.

Speaker B 00:01:41

Now, her mission is to bring the educational needs of children in foster care to the attention of those who can change policies and practices.

Speaker B 00:01:47

Now, her primary work includes training foster parents from the educational laws that affect children in foster care and how to use those laws to ensure that children graduate successfully.

Speaker B 00:01:56

An amazingly inspiring conversation.

Speaker B 00:01:58

It's a topic that we've not covered before, and I really hope this gets to the people that really need it to support those young children who need it most.

Speaker B 00:02:08

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, the place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Speaker B 00:02:22

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Speaker B 00:02:30

Hi, Sharon, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast.

Speaker B 00:02:34

I think fostering is a topic that we haven't spoke about, certainly specifically and with the heart of the child at the very center of what Education on Far is now all about.

Speaker B 00:02:43

This is going to be such an important conversation.

Speaker B 00:02:45

So thanks so much for joining me.

Speaker A 00:02:47

Thanks for having me, Mark.

Speaker B 00:02:49

So let's jump straight in in terms of foster care training today.

Speaker B 00:02:54

Tell us a little bit about exactly what you do and kind of how that works and then we'll, we'll talk more about sort of how we got there and that kind of thing from there.

Speaker A 00:03:02

Sure.

Speaker A 00:03:03

So foster care training today is the business that I run and I'm here in the US and so what I do is I offer training for foster parents through state agencies.

Speaker A 00:03:15

And so I do also offer free classes that I just do for a group that I have.

Speaker A 00:03:21

But really where I make my money is through training for states.

Speaker A 00:03:25

And so my area of expertise is specifically in education and the education of children in foster care, the laws that we have in the US that help them get a better education so that when they graduate they're ready to live independently.

Speaker A 00:03:43

I'm very unique in what I do.

Speaker A 00:03:46

There's not very many educational advocates specifically for foster parent or for foster kids out there right now.

Speaker A 00:03:53

And so I'm trying to spread awareness.

Speaker A 00:03:56

This is why I'm on a podcasts like yours and others to kind of let people know that our foster kids right now are not graduating.

Speaker A 00:04:05

Well, like they may graduate, they may not, they may not even have a high school diploma when they age out of care.

Speaker A 00:04:13

And so their adulthood is very much affected by what happens in school.

Speaker A 00:04:19

And right now they're not succeeding as adults.

Speaker A 00:04:22

So I'm trying to bring awareness to the front end.

Speaker A 00:04:26

Let's get them educated, let's get them graduated, get them having the appropriate independent living skills they need so that when they age out, they are able to be successful adults.

Speaker B 00:04:39

I mean, it's such an important thing.

Speaker B 00:04:41

And tell me a little bit about in terms of the amount of time that we're talking about in terms of the people that you're going to be working with, because for those of us that don't really sort of know those situations, are we talking about some children that are going to be coming in and out of foster care, the care sort of quite quickly.

Speaker B 00:04:56

So how much time you have with that?

Speaker B 00:04:58

Or if we're sort of talking a little bit more long term.

Speaker B 00:05:00

So like I say, you can put those, those sort of things in place.

Speaker A 00:05:04

Sure.

Speaker A 00:05:04

Foster care is very varied.

Speaker A 00:05:07

I mean, I think you know that.

Speaker A 00:05:09

Right.

Speaker A 00:05:09

There are going to be several kids that it is just a very short term placement.

Speaker A 00:05:15

I think the average is around one year in terms of those short term placements, but there are several that are stay for very long term.

Speaker A 00:05:26

Reunification right now here in the US is only at 40%.

Speaker A 00:05:32

I don't remember what the statistic is on how many age out and live independent without having been reunified.

Speaker A 00:05:40

But it's not a very high or not a reunification is not a very high number.

Speaker A 00:05:47

We are working on trying to improve that.

Speaker A 00:05:49

But there's a lot that needs to go into helping the family be ready to retake their children.

Speaker A 00:05:58

And I think we're failing a bit in that.

Speaker A 00:06:01

So I just kind of concentrate on the kids that I have for as long as I have them.

Speaker A 00:06:06

And so that's why I really try and focus on the foster parents.

Speaker A 00:06:11

Because the foster parents may have a kid for six months, they may have them for years, they may take them as babies and they're reunified and then they get another baby.

Speaker A 00:06:22

They may never have kids that go into the school system, but if they have any long care and they do take them as young, they may end up in the school system.

Speaker A 00:06:32

So what I feel like is I can work with the kids, but the ones who know the kids the best are the foster parents.

Speaker A 00:06:40

And so if I can work with the foster parents and train them on how to be educational advocates, then they're ready for whatever length of time a child is in their home, whether it be short term, long term, they know the laws and how that affects those kids and then just keeps them, you know, they can keep using those tools over and over and over again.

Speaker A 00:07:02

So that's why I focus on the foster parents.

Speaker B 00:07:05

Yeah, and that makes so much sense, doesn't it?

Speaker B 00:07:07

Because it means that they can, I mean, hit the ground running doesn't sound like the right term in that scenario.

Speaker B 00:07:11

But it's like what they're not going to need to do then is sort of think, oh, all of a sudden I need to learn these things or I'm in a specific use case scenario where if I'd only known that before, we could have helped earlier or that kind of thing.

Speaker B 00:07:22

So that, that, that makes so much sense from that point of view.

Speaker B 00:07:25

And I think the other thing, I mean, like I say from a completely sort of outside the circle standpoint, it would be the fact that my assumption is we want a safe home environment.

Speaker B 00:07:34

We want to give them all the care and love that they need to support them in that way.

Speaker B 00:07:39

But assuming that's a given, as is a foster parent, to like say, to then be able to say, well now it's you're Just going to go to school to get whatever education you can while we're here, to actually know that we've already taken care of knowing what's best for you or what we can try and do to support you.

Speaker B 00:07:54

Then I guess the child themselves starts to think, all right, so there's more to this.

Speaker B 00:07:58

I can actually take some control myself, whatever my situation is.

Speaker B 00:08:02

And that has to be a really positive thing, I would think, from a reinforcement point of view, it is.

Speaker A 00:08:07

And so for foster kids, foster kids have a lot of trauma.

Speaker A 00:08:13

Just even being removed from their home is trauma.

Speaker A 00:08:17

And then you add in whatever was going on in their home that caused the removal.

Speaker A 00:08:23

And so our foster kids, they come in and they don't have a lot of self esteem, they don't have a sense of safety, they don't have a sense of trust of adults.

Speaker A 00:08:33

And so what we do is as foster parents is our very number one goal is to make them feel safe.

Speaker A 00:08:41

Because we know that if they don't feel safe, they're not going to bond with us, they're not going to have good self esteem because they're always stuck in what we call that fight flight or flight freeze mode.

Speaker A 00:08:53

That trauma response of, oh my gosh, if I do something wrong, I'm going to get hurt again, or oh my gosh, all the adults in my family or my life have come in and out of my life and I'm going to lose this adult.

Speaker A 00:09:06

So I can't trust them.

Speaker A 00:09:08

There's all of that sense of lack of trust.

Speaker A 00:09:11

So we want to build that groundwork of safety.

Speaker A 00:09:14

But then as they start to feel safe with us, then yes, we want them to start making attachments.

Speaker A 00:09:20

We want them to start feeling good about themselves.

Speaker A 00:09:23

We want them to feel like they have that self confidence to do something good in the world.

Speaker A 00:09:28

And it's really hard for kids with trauma to have those feelings because they're just stuck in that fight flight or fright or fight mode and they don't know how to move out of that.

Speaker A 00:09:41

And so in schools, as much as they want to, don't always understand trauma.

Speaker A 00:09:48

They understand a child with ADHD or autism, and they understand there's different learning styles, but they don't necessarily understand what happens in the brain when a kid has trauma and how they get stuck.

Speaker A 00:10:05

So as much as our foster parents can help the kids feel safe, learn how to trust themselves as well as other adults, and then advocate in the schools for them to understand what trauma response is, is all going to work towards making those kids come out Feeling like I can do something with my life.

Speaker A 00:10:27

I worked with a student when I first started at the licensing agency that I worked at as an educational advocate.

Speaker A 00:10:35

When I first started there, I worked with a student who really, his grade point average was like 20%.

Speaker A 00:10:43

He was failing big time.

Speaker A 00:10:46

And when I first got there and I was working with them and I was going to his meetings about his individualized education plan, I looked back at his old ones and they were all the same.

Speaker A 00:10:59

They weren't pushing this kid on new goals.

Speaker A 00:11:01

So I was talking with him and he's like, well, I'm just too stupid.

Speaker A 00:11:05

I'm never going to learn anything.

Speaker A 00:11:07

So, you know, why even bother trying?

Speaker A 00:11:10

And it was, it broke my heart.

Speaker A 00:11:12

Well, I worked with him, I got him a tutor.

Speaker A 00:11:14

We got his grade point average up to a 50% which was still failing, but it was 30% higher than where he was before.

Speaker A 00:11:22

But it took us so much to let him know, look at how much you've accomplished.

Speaker A 00:11:28

All he saw was, I still have an F.

Speaker A 00:11:30

But we're like, but you, you went higher.

Speaker A 00:11:33

You got 30% more than what you should have got.

Speaker A 00:11:37

You know, you were at before.

Speaker A 00:11:39

And helping him try to help him understand, he just, he never thought he could do anything.

Speaker A 00:11:43

He didn't think he could live on his own, he didn't think he could do well in school.

Speaker A 00:11:48

Well, whenever he would come to the office for his counseling, he would sit at this desk behind me while we were waiting for his counselor to be free.

Speaker A 00:11:56

And the computers in our office, now this was an unmanned desk, so there was nothing on this computer.

Speaker A 00:12:02

But the computers in our office are all locked down.

Speaker A 00:12:04

And all of a sudden I look back and he's hacked in.

Speaker A 00:12:07

So this kid had some brains.

Speaker A 00:12:09

Like I'm telling him, you know, you can hack into this computer, you can do what you want.

Speaker A 00:12:14

I mean, you know, just because you can't read as well or do math as well, you still have skills.

Speaker A 00:12:20

And so, you know, but it took a lot to really help his self esteem grow because he was so stuck in that, I'm worthless, I can't do anything, I'm stupid, that type of mentality.

Speaker A 00:12:34

And so yeah, it's really important that our kids grow and that we help them understand all of us can do something.

Speaker A 00:12:44

It may not be, you know, you may not, he may not go to college, but surely he could get a job as a computer tech, right?

Speaker A 00:12:52

I mean, he's got those skills already and, and he just needs a little schooling to make them better.

Speaker A 00:12:59

So yeah, so that's what our goal is.

Speaker B 00:13:01

And I think what I love so much about that is it applies to so many people, doesn't it?

Speaker B 00:13:05

Because everybody's life is different.

Speaker B 00:13:07

And whatever, wherever you are on that kind of spectrum or that scale of kind of learning within the system, what you should be at a certain age, or what you should be reading or what your math level should be or whatever, none of it really makes any difference.

Speaker B 00:13:19

It's about you and how you're going about it.

Speaker B 00:13:21

And you might have all the support in the world and, you know, hit the ground running and be really sort of doing well, but then struggle later on or you might not have had that support.

Speaker B 00:13:30

You don't have that traditional education, like I say, of just reading and writing enough that it needs to build up.

Speaker B 00:13:35

But I think as soon as you know that the options are there, whatever you want to achieve or where you want to put your energy, like, say, it must be even harder if you're like, say, with the trauma or whatever your circumstances are in terms of what we're talking about today.

Speaker B 00:13:47

But I think it even understanding that no matter what your situation at home or what your learning experience is, it's such a valuable thing to be able to get across.

Speaker A 00:13:56

Yeah, yeah, it really is.

Speaker B 00:13:59

And in terms of what you, you kind of advocate and in terms of what you're teaching, what is it about the law specifically?

Speaker B 00:14:06

Is it in terms of what schools you can get into, what funding you can get, that sort of thing?

Speaker B 00:14:11

What is it that people sort of need to know that you sort of help provide?

Speaker A 00:14:16

Yes.

Speaker A 00:14:16

So in, in, in the US There are three main federal laws that help foster kids.

Speaker A 00:14:23

The first one is called the Every Student Succeeds Act.

Speaker A 00:14:27

And you guys may have heard of no Child Left behind and Every Student Succeeds act over or was a newer law that replaced that one.

Speaker A 00:14:36

And there's this portion of that law that specifically helps children in foster care, which was never there before.

Speaker A 00:14:45

And so what's about that law is it lets students who move from home to home, if they move out of their school district, they can stay in the same school they were in, even if it is out of their district, and remain there so that they're not constantly changing schools, constantly changing placements.

Speaker A 00:15:05

And if they do have to change schools, they are immediately enrolled in the past schools would be like, well, we need their shot records.

Speaker A 00:15:13

Oh, we need their birth certificate.

Speaker A 00:15:14

Oh, we need this, we need that.

Speaker A 00:15:16

Well, sometimes that's really hard to get from the bio families.

Speaker A 00:15:20

And so by by letting them be immediately enrolled, they're losing less school time and which is really important.

Speaker A 00:15:28

We need the kids in classrooms.

Speaker A 00:15:30

The more they're out of the classroom, the more likely they're fault they fall behind.

Speaker A 00:15:34

The more they fall behind, the more likely they are to drop out or not graduate.

Speaker A 00:15:38

So it's a cycle, right?

Speaker A 00:15:39

And then we don't even add in the whole prison pipeline that we know happens when they're suspended and expelled over and over and over again.

Speaker A 00:15:48

The likelihood of them being incarcerated, incarcerated rises dramatically as well.

Speaker A 00:15:53

So we really want these kids in the classroom.

Speaker A 00:15:55

So the first law, the Every Student Succeeds act, helps them get into those classrooms either by staying in the school they've already been in or being immediately enrolled into a new school.

Speaker A 00:16:06

The second law that I use is the Individuals with Disabilities Act.

Speaker A 00:16:11

And what that does is that is the one where I say this child has a lot of trauma response.

Speaker A 00:16:18

They need an individualized education plan.

Speaker A 00:16:21

And so that's what we use in order to get them that plan.

Speaker A 00:16:24

And what that plan does then is by federal law, it gives them certain accommodations, it gives them extra help within the school system.

Speaker A 00:16:32

And all of this is paid by federal title funds.

Speaker A 00:16:35

So it's all taken care through that.

Speaker A 00:16:38

The final law is what's called the Family First Prevention Services Act.

Speaker A 00:16:43

And this one was actually, it's not an education law, but they have been trying to work with families at the front end.

Speaker A 00:16:52

There's money there to try and help families at the front end not have their kids removed.

Speaker A 00:16:57

But if they are removed, it also provides independent living skill trainings from 14 years of 14 on.

Speaker A 00:17:05

Now here in the U.S.

Speaker A 00:17:06

that law, they can use the funds all the way up to the age of 26, depending on their state.

Speaker A 00:17:11

I know where you are in the UK, once a kid turns 18, they're out of care.

Speaker A 00:17:16

And we used to be like that, but then we realized our kids aren't ready at 18 to be on their own.

Speaker A 00:17:23

And so they extended their ability to be in foster care until the age of 21, as well as being able to get education vouchers all the way up to the age of 26.

Speaker A 00:17:36

Like I said, in certain states.

Speaker A 00:17:38

And so those laws all work together to help our kids get what they need.

Speaker A 00:17:44

And what's really nice about Family first is if you're in a state where the Department of Child Services doesn't have the funding to provide tutors.

Speaker A 00:17:53

Indiana does have that, but some states don't.

Speaker A 00:17:56

And there is money available through Family first for parents to get tutoring for their kids if they're 14 or older.

Speaker A 00:18:05

It helps them if they want to go to college.

Speaker A 00:18:08

It'll help pay for things like their entrance exams.

Speaker A 00:18:11

If they do get into college, it'll help pay for things like computers and software, all the things that a kid usually would rely on their parents for.

Speaker A 00:18:20

This law provides for these kids and so that's really helpful.

Speaker A 00:18:25

And it also provides vouchers for college as well as vocational schools because not every kid is going to go to college, but every kid needs some type of training in order to do a job.

Speaker A 00:18:37

And so vocational training is really helpful.

Speaker A 00:18:41

And you asked about whether or not they can choose what schools they go to certain states, that is an option.

Speaker A 00:18:50

In Indiana, I know if you're in some of the bigger cities, we do have a program where kids, if they want to go to a certain high school because it has a specific vocational training program, they're able to do that.

Speaker A 00:19:02

But I know in some other areas, rural areas, you don't have a lot of choices, right?

Speaker A 00:19:07

So they may have to use an outside source to get that vocational training.

Speaker A 00:19:12

And that's where Family first would come in and help provide some of that.

Speaker A 00:19:17

So it does help provide some options.

Speaker A 00:19:19

The disappointing part is most people don't know these laws exist.

Speaker A 00:19:24

And so again, that's why I train these foster parents.

Speaker A 00:19:27

I give them the manual that applies to their state with their state rules on how they're going to enact each of these laws.

Speaker A 00:19:37

So that when they go to a meeting and somebody says, well, we're a charter school, we don't have to do individualized education plans, they can say, yes, you do, you're federally funded.

Speaker A 00:19:48

In all federally funded schools, regardless, have to provide this.

Speaker A 00:19:52

And I've had foster parents tell me that they've been told this before, well, we're too small, we don't have to follow this.

Speaker A 00:19:59

It's a federal law and if you receive federal funds, you have to follow it.

Speaker A 00:20:04

So those are the types of laws that really help our foster kids.

Speaker B 00:20:08

And you've painted such a brilliant picture there because you suddenly realize that actually there are so many options that you wouldn't have even thought about, like say whether it's just funding for specific things.

Speaker B 00:20:20

I think the age related things as.

Speaker B 00:20:22

Because I mean, certainly with children who are now beyond school, you know, that they just need, they don't need the same support they did when they were 14, but they certainly need some.

Speaker B 00:20:31

If it's just the odd question that, you know, you need somewhere to be able to go and wherever you get that information and you get that Support it does, like say it's well into your 20s, so I think that's fantastic to understand that.

Speaker B 00:20:42

And also, like you say, to know it's not just about what we can do in school today, but there's a, there's a progression here and we can make that work for you.

Speaker B 00:20:50

And it doesn't have to look this way, it can look that way.

Speaker B 00:20:52

And the system's built to support you.

Speaker B 00:20:54

And I think that's brilliant because then I think that's probably the opposite to what many people think is the fact that I'm not in the system normally, as it were, and so therefore I'm gonna struggle.

Speaker B 00:21:05

And I think to get that reinforcement, like you say, from the foster parents, because they know that's the case and to be able to continually support that and have a dialogue in that and then like say, actually sort of legitimately, if there's a school that says no, we don't do it, to know the law well enough to be able to say, say, well, I think we need to have a conversation about that, because I think that might not be the case then, like you say, exactly like I say.

Speaker B 00:21:27

And I think about all these things is the fact that it's all happening here and now as opposed to, like you say, having to learn these things in the future.

Speaker B 00:21:33

So, yeah, I think, yeah, I can visually sort of see how that would support anybody that was in that.

Speaker B 00:21:38

In that situation.

Speaker A 00:21:40

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A 00:21:41

And, you know, I can tell you a story about a student I worked with.

Speaker A 00:21:45

So he was in residential care since he was 4 years or 4 years old.

Speaker A 00:21:50

And he finally came out of residential care in the ninth grade.

Speaker A 00:21:54

He finished his ninth grade year, came out and was placed into a foster home.

Speaker A 00:21:58

One of our foster homes, one of our best foster homes, I should say.

Speaker A 00:22:02

And when we got him enrolled in his 10th grade year, we learned that the residential facility did not record any of his credits for his ninth grade year.

Speaker A 00:22:11

So all the classes he took there were lost.

Speaker A 00:22:15

So we had to work with him doing online school over the summer, coming home and doing 9th grade classes after he had gone to school all day and done his 10th grade glasses.

Speaker A 00:22:25

I mean, it was a catch up.

Speaker A 00:22:27

And there were times when he wanted to quit, he wanted to fail.

Speaker A 00:22:31

And we pushed and pushed and pushed and we got him graduated half a year late, which was pretty good.

Speaker A 00:22:37

And he was smart enough to realize, okay, now that I'm graduated, I need continued help.

Speaker A 00:22:47

I'm not ready to just do this on my own.

Speaker A 00:22:50

And so in order in Indiana, in order to Take advantage of that family first funds.

Speaker A 00:22:56

You have to either be working part time or in school part time.

Speaker A 00:23:01

Well, he went home and he actually opted out of family first at first, but then realized he did not want to live with his dad.

Speaker A 00:23:09

And he contacted his case manager.

Speaker A 00:23:11

They got him back on the roles of foster care, and they helped him find an apartment near where his dad lived, but not with his dad.

Speaker A 00:23:22

Found him in a roommate helped pay for that apartment for a while so that he could adjust to living on his own.

Speaker A 00:23:30

And then now he just aged out at 23 here in Indiana, but he is a manager at a Domino's.

Speaker A 00:23:40

He lives on his own.

Speaker A 00:23:42

They helped that he used the funds to help him buy a motorbike so he could get back and forth to school.

Speaker A 00:23:48

He did also use the funds to get his driver's license, but chose not to drive, which was fine from where he lives and where he's going, where he works.

Speaker A 00:23:57

And so he took advantage.

Speaker A 00:23:59

And that's the thing we have to teach the kids early on, that these resources are out there and what's the advantage of using those?

Speaker A 00:24:07

And he saw the advantage and now he's doing great.

Speaker A 00:24:11

They actually wanted him to be a general manager for Domino's, and he started the training, but he didn't like working with corporate, which I don't blame him at all.

Speaker A 00:24:22

You know, it's important to know your own boundaries as well.

Speaker A 00:24:26

And he was able to do that.

Speaker A 00:24:28

But, I mean, it took a lot of intensive work with him and me and his foster family to get him to where he was, where he wouldn't fly off the handle every time somebody said something that he didn't like and all of that.

Speaker A 00:24:43

But it also took a lot of resilience in himself.

Speaker A 00:24:46

And I always tell him all the time how proud I am of him because he really did know what he needed and followed through.

Speaker A 00:24:55

And so, yeah, but it's just really nice for them to know when they get out that there's still that cushion there.

Speaker A 00:25:04

Like I said, I know in the UK, you guys, they age out at 18 and there really isn't anything.

Speaker A 00:25:10

And I've got several people that I communicate with on LinkedIn and we talk about that difference that, you know, these kids hit 18 and then what, they don't know what to do and there's nothing there for them, them.

Speaker A 00:25:23

And so I keep telling my friends and on LinkedIn, you guys need to get a family first law.

Speaker A 00:25:28

I can send it to you.

Speaker A 00:25:29

You know, you need to take this to your lawmakers and get Your kids covered.

Speaker A 00:25:35

Because 18 is too young to really be out there on their own, especially if they're not over their trauma, because that makes their brains about 14.

Speaker A 00:25:46

And so.

Speaker A 00:25:47

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:25:47

And is it so true?

Speaker B 00:25:49

I mean, certainly in our community, we've experienced that.

Speaker B 00:25:52

You know, we had someone that we knew moved in and.

Speaker B 00:25:54

And it was exactly that.

Speaker B 00:25:55

It was that kind of.

Speaker B 00:25:57

So here's your accommodation.

Speaker B 00:25:59

Fantastic, then.

Speaker B 00:26:01

Okay, so decorating, shopping, getting to work, getting a job, it's just like, yeah, I mean, how'd you do that?

Speaker B 00:26:10

Just suddenly, you know, yesterday you had someone who was helping you, and hopefully you were in an environment that was helpful, and then today you're not.

Speaker B 00:26:17

We'll see you later.

Speaker B 00:26:18

I mean, it's.

Speaker B 00:26:18

I mean, it is.

Speaker B 00:26:19

It's.

Speaker B 00:26:19

It's short, shocking and frightening.

Speaker B 00:26:21

And.

Speaker B 00:26:21

Yeah, you know, laws aside, you would think that the civilization would actually have something in there, and you hope, you know, there's extra support around those sorts of things within your community as well.

Speaker B 00:26:31

But, like, say, I think sometimes it needs or definitely does need the law, or it needs something in place that kind of like, say, lets the Runway or the.

Speaker B 00:26:40

Or the slope actually support them because of their age, but also because of that.

Speaker B 00:26:45

That maturity.

Speaker B 00:26:45

Like I say, as you get older as well.

Speaker B 00:26:47

And I think this is also why, why I love the podcast so much, is because, you know, you can read, you can see a website, you can understand all of these things.

Speaker B 00:26:55

You might even be able to read the laws.

Speaker B 00:26:56

And know, I can do that.

Speaker B 00:26:58

But there's something about the humanity, like, say, of hearing about that particular person or knowing that story or.

Speaker B 00:27:03

Or understanding, like I said, that picture that you painted.

Speaker B 00:27:06

I can see how that child's life is going to be different because of this and what I want to find out about it.

Speaker B 00:27:11

And it's.

Speaker B 00:27:12

They're such great things and.

Speaker B 00:27:14

And in terms of.

Speaker B 00:27:15

Of sort of the number of people that you're able to affect, I guess, because you're talking to individual parents as well as, like, say, within groups, within the organizations that you're working with.

Speaker B 00:27:27

The ripple effect of that and then being able to support each other must be really, really exciting and supportive for everybody.

Speaker A 00:27:34

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:27:34

And it's amazing to me how many times I've been teaching for the state of Ohio now for three years, and every time I teach my class on educational rights for children in foster care, it's amazing to me how the parents are all like, we've never even knew this.

Speaker A 00:27:50

We never heard this.

Speaker A 00:27:51

And part of the problem is the licensing agencies don't know these laws.

Speaker A 00:27:57

The state caseworkers don't know these laws.

Speaker A 00:28:01

And there again, in the US we tend not to fund things with children as well as we do other things.

Speaker A 00:28:08

Right.

Speaker A 00:28:08

That's a huge issue here.

Speaker A 00:28:10

And so childcare workers are like, caseworkers are paid nothing compared to what they should be paid.

Speaker A 00:28:17

And so the turnover is so high.

Speaker A 00:28:21

And usually that type of job, the state level case manager is going to be an entry level job.

Speaker A 00:28:28

So they're going to come right out of college with that social work degree thinking, yes, I'm going to change the lives of children and families everywhere.

Speaker A 00:28:35

And 70% of their work is paperwork.

Speaker A 00:28:38

Right.

Speaker A 00:28:39

I mean, it's because they have to justify themselves and all this to the legislators and all that.

Speaker A 00:28:45

It's a mess, right?

Speaker A 00:28:47

So they don't have time to learn all this stuff and then they move on and then we have to retrain another set.

Speaker A 00:28:55

So it's, I am working with some places that are trying to actually train their case managers, not just their foster parents, because they just don't know these things.

Speaker A 00:29:05

They just don't.

Speaker A 00:29:07

And so if they don't know, who's going to tell the foster parents?

Speaker A 00:29:11

You know, and that's, and that's where it really starts to break down.

Speaker A 00:29:15

And then if you bring in the school systems, who's telling them if they don't, you know, if the case managers don't know then, and the parents don't know who tells the schools what they're supposed to do.

Speaker A 00:29:26

It's a huge breakdown in our system and we've got to do, we're, we're working on it, but you know, it's changing times.

Speaker A 00:29:35

Who knows what's going to happen in the near future.

Speaker A 00:29:37

But we're, we've got to keep these kids kind of in our minds.

Speaker A 00:29:43

And I don't know about the uk, but I find here in the US there's a certain perception about foster children and it's kind of sad.

Speaker A 00:29:52

They tend to look at foster kids as either they're broken, you know, like they're all poor kids, their families were horrible, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker A 00:30:02

Well, half of the time their families weren't horrible.

Speaker A 00:30:05

They were stuck in poverty.

Speaker A 00:30:07

And we don't help them get out of poverty.

Speaker A 00:30:10

We have a lot of kids who are removed from their homes just because their parents are poor, poor.

Speaker A 00:30:14

And they tend to be kids of color.

Speaker A 00:30:17

Poor white families are not, or, you know, white children are not necessarily removed as children of color.

Speaker A 00:30:23

So we've got some racist, all of this systemic stuff going on.

Speaker A 00:30:27

And we're not helping them at the beginning to get them out of poverty.

Speaker A 00:30:30

So a lot of these kids are removed, and it's nothing that the parents did wrong.

Speaker A 00:30:35

It's just they couldn't support them, and we didn't help them at the front end.

Speaker A 00:30:40

But then.

Speaker A 00:30:42

So we know that kids are in foster care, but we don't talk about them very much.

Speaker A 00:30:46

And if we do talk about them, it's like in the TV shows, I like to watch a lot of crime dramas, and half of the time they'll be like, well, you know, the.

Speaker A 00:30:56

The one who's the.

Speaker A 00:30:57

The perpetrator of whatever crime.

Speaker A 00:30:59

Oh, well, yeah, he grew up in foster care, and that's like, okay, so that's just determined.

Speaker A 00:31:04

He's going to be the one that cut.

Speaker A 00:31:06

Committed the crime.

Speaker A 00:31:07

Right?

Speaker A 00:31:08

And even in the schools, foster kids will tell me that when they go to school and the teachers hear that they're a foster kid, there's this immediate reaction of, oh, I'm going to have problems with this kid.

Speaker A 00:31:22

And what happens is, I feel like we blame the victims.

Speaker A 00:31:25

We blame the kids for what happened to them.

Speaker A 00:31:29

They.

Speaker A 00:31:29

They didn't ask to be traumatized.

Speaker A 00:31:31

They didn't ask to be removed from their homes.

Speaker A 00:31:34

They didn't.

Speaker A 00:31:34

They didn't ask for any of this.

Speaker A 00:31:36

But we assume, because we don't understand trauma, that their behaviors are bad, and therefore they were bad kids because they were foster kids.

Speaker A 00:31:45

And so we've got to get out of that perception.

Speaker A 00:31:48

But we also need to be talking about these kids.

Speaker A 00:31:51

We have half a million kids in foster care at any given time right now.

Speaker A 00:31:57

That's a lot of kids.

Speaker A 00:31:58

And we don't talk about them.

Speaker A 00:32:00

We don't talk about them.

Speaker A 00:32:02

Yeah, we.

Speaker A 00:32:03

We just, you know, we know foster care exists, but it's not something that's on our radar.

Speaker A 00:32:08

And so we need to bring it forward.

Speaker A 00:32:11

Right?

Speaker A 00:32:11

We need to bring these.

Speaker A 00:32:12

These needs forward.

Speaker A 00:32:13

We need to say that these are real children.

Speaker A 00:32:16

These aren't TV characters.

Speaker A 00:32:18

These aren't.

Speaker A 00:32:19

You know, we depersonalize a lot.

Speaker A 00:32:21

And.

Speaker A 00:32:21

But we need to have real kids.

Speaker A 00:32:23

So that's why I like to tell stories about kids I work with.

Speaker A 00:32:25

With.

Speaker A 00:32:26

Right?

Speaker A 00:32:26

Because these are real kids.

Speaker A 00:32:28

These are real students that I've worked with who have these feelings, who have these experiences, who can be contributing members of society if we step out and help them.

Speaker B 00:32:42

And that really is where all those touch points you were talking about come in, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:32:46

Because, like I say, if there's a conversation about it, it means that Maybe the first interaction someone has with someone is a more positive one.

Speaker B 00:32:53

Or like you say, if the case worker knows that this is available, then that funding comes into place much quicker.

Speaker B 00:32:59

Like the, the foster parents are immediately aware of those things.

Speaker B 00:33:03

The schools understand this is possible.

Speaker B 00:33:04

And like you say, yeah, it's why these conversations are so important.

Speaker B 00:33:08

And I guess it's why, you know, we talk about technology being positive and negative, why it can be so positive.

Speaker B 00:33:14

Because hopefully someone searching for something comes across our conversation and then suddenly goes, I had no idea that was the case.

Speaker B 00:33:20

Or, you know, and exactly.

Speaker B 00:33:22

There are certain things that you hope will become policy, that might become law.

Speaker B 00:33:26

The funding's extended, you know, everything's changed.

Speaker B 00:33:30

But we certainly know that what we can do is we can have this conversation today and hopefully, yeah, someone else goes, oh, I know someone who'd be able to understand more about this or get some positive reinforcement or something.

Speaker B 00:33:41

And then, and then at least you kind of think if there's a lot of people doing that, that then that ripple effect is going to help people beyond what we can obviously do personally, but even maybe from a policy point of view, because circumstances and situations and perceptions change and then you've really got a positive momentum going.

Speaker A 00:34:01

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker A 00:34:03

And that's why I do this.

Speaker A 00:34:05

You know, when I reached out to you, your podcast wasn't quite like perfect fit for what I was talking about.

Speaker A 00:34:13

And that was why I kind of sent you the message, like, you know, I'm not sure if this is something you'd like to talk about, but this is what I do.

Speaker A 00:34:19

And so I was really excited when you said, yes, I'll talk to you about this.

Speaker A 00:34:23

And we scheduled this podcast.

Speaker A 00:34:25

Right.

Speaker A 00:34:25

You know, that's, I, I really am trying to be out there to be that voice so that people are looking at this and talking about it a lot more, because our kids need us and it's expensive.

Speaker A 00:34:40

So I just recently saw a report that for every foster kid that ages out because they're not living independently, they're still using government funds and things, they can cost our country $300,000 each person that ages out just because they are trying, they have to rely on so many federal funds in order to even survive.

Speaker A 00:35:07

And that's, that's, I mean, so for those people who are very money minded, that's a lot of money per kid.

Speaker A 00:35:13

If we've got 20,000 aging out every year and they each are costing, costing us 300,000, that's $6 million that, you know, or 60 million, whatever the math.

Speaker A 00:35:24

Is I'm not good at math, but, you know, it's a lot of money.

Speaker B 00:35:27

A lot of money.

Speaker B 00:35:27

Absolutely.

Speaker A 00:35:28

It's a lot of money that cost our country.

Speaker A 00:35:30

And so, you know, if.

Speaker A 00:35:32

If we don't even want to focus on the needs of the kid, let's look at what the cost is financially, you know.

Speaker B 00:35:38

Yeah, well.

Speaker B 00:35:39

Well, first of all, thanks for reaching out because that, that is such an important thing.

Speaker B 00:35:43

And I think, think.

Speaker B 00:35:44

I think this really typifies or is specifically about what we're trying to do or what I'm trying to do as part of education on file, because it's about having the child at the center of what we're talking about.

Speaker B 00:35:56

And so, you know, there'll be people listening who aren't experienced within foster care, but there's still a child at the center of that.

Speaker B 00:36:02

It might be a school person who suddenly goes, I can think about this a different way.

Speaker B 00:36:07

Or it might be someone in.

Speaker B 00:36:09

In, you know, in who works within the law and thinks, oh, that doesn't.

Speaker B 00:36:12

It doesn't affect me directly, but I can understand this, or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker B 00:36:16

Yeah, but it's going to support that child.

Speaker B 00:36:17

It might even support the child who has a different idea or a different perspective or a different way of communicating with someone who's in foster care.

Speaker B 00:36:25

So I think, like I say, all those touch points make such a big difference.

Speaker B 00:36:28

And.

Speaker B 00:36:28

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B 00:36:29

So thanks so much for that.

Speaker B 00:36:32

Is there an education experience or a teacher that you remember that you'd like to share with us?

Speaker B 00:36:37

And.

Speaker B 00:36:38

And I'm always fascinated when we sort of come to this part of the conversation, how that sort of maybe fits into your understanding of what you do now, because, of course, you're interacting with people in a certain way, and sometimes we remember the positives of things that have happened.

Speaker B 00:36:50

But also it might be how you had a conversation with someone which wasn't so positive that you.

Speaker B 00:36:55

You definitely had a big impact because then you're going to change how you sort of go and so forward from that point of view.

Speaker B 00:37:01

So, yeah, tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker A 00:37:04

So when I was in 10th grade, my parents were scientists, and I'm an identical twin sister.

Speaker A 00:37:11

And I were kind of raised, you know, that we were going to be scientists, too.

Speaker A 00:37:15

And I was in 10th grade and I was taking biology, and on a whim, I decided to take a child development class as well.

Speaker A 00:37:23

And in that class, we actually ran a preschool in our high school.

Speaker A 00:37:28

So I realized that biology and I did not get along.

Speaker A 00:37:32

Like, school came very Easy for me, but, man, I just could not understand biology.

Speaker A 00:37:39

I don't know.

Speaker A 00:37:39

That was too much for me.

Speaker A 00:37:41

So at that point I realized, well, I probably won't be a scientist if I can't even handle high school biology.

Speaker A 00:37:47

Meanwhile, I'm taking this child development class and loving it, like, just loving it.

Speaker A 00:37:53

We called our teacher Ms.

Speaker A 00:37:55

Janet because, like I said, we ran a preschool in the school.

Speaker A 00:37:59

So, you know, the kids called her Ms.

Speaker A 00:38:00

Janet.

Speaker A 00:38:01

I don't remember her last name.

Speaker A 00:38:02

But Ms.

Speaker A 00:38:03

Janet really opened our eyes to what it could be to teach kids.

Speaker A 00:38:09

Kids at 4 and 5 years old.

Speaker A 00:38:12

And it was really amazing to me.

Speaker A 00:38:14

And from that point on, I was like, oh, I'm.

Speaker A 00:38:17

I'm going to be a teacher.

Speaker A 00:38:18

This is what I want to do.

Speaker A 00:38:20

Kind of shocked my parents.

Speaker A 00:38:22

They wanted me to be a scientist like them, but, you know, it was just where my heart was.

Speaker A 00:38:28

And so I loved teaching that preschool.

Speaker A 00:38:31

And what we did was like, we had like six weeks with Ms.

Speaker A 00:38:34

Janet before we actually started the preschool school.

Speaker A 00:38:38

But she really opened a door for me in terms of what I was going to do with my life when I grew up.

Speaker A 00:38:45

And so, yeah, she was definitely the person that influenced me the most that I remember.

Speaker B 00:38:52

And I think it's really an important topic that people don't necessarily speak to in terms of where you get that support from, because I say there are certainly sort of family.

Speaker B 00:39:01

Family characteristics, because, you know, I want you to be a particular thing, and it's quite.

Speaker B 00:39:06

You.

Speaker B 00:39:06

You must do this.

Speaker B 00:39:07

And then the flip side is, you know, I did this as a parent, which I absolutely love.

Speaker B 00:39:12

And I want you to do what you equally love.

Speaker B 00:39:15

And I might not understand what that is, because, like I say, there's something about certain areas or certain topics or something about a person that you can't quite identify what it is.

Speaker B 00:39:24

But, you know, there's a path there.

Speaker B 00:39:26

There's a.

Speaker B 00:39:26

There's something there that you want to explore more.

Speaker B 00:39:28

And I think, think, yeah, it's.

Speaker B 00:39:30

There's always someone that you can remember, even if you can't necessarily pinpoint exactly what that one thing was.

Speaker B 00:39:36

And I think that's absolutely fantastic.

Speaker B 00:39:39

Is there a piece of advice you've been given or a piece of advice you might give your younger self?

Speaker B 00:39:44

Now, looking back, and I do caveat this often with the fact that I know that we don't always take on board what we might have been told when we were younger, but it's still important to hear these things.

Speaker B 00:39:51

But something along those lines, you'd like to Share.

Speaker A 00:39:55

All right, you're gonna laugh, but my mom always said, life is short, eat dessert first.

Speaker A 00:40:02

And honestly, I live that way.

Speaker A 00:40:05

Like, I mean, I'm not a thrill seeker by any means, but I live life to its fullest.

Speaker A 00:40:10

My parents still live their life to the fullest.

Speaker A 00:40:13

My parents are in their 80s and they still travel and they still do things.

Speaker A 00:40:17

And when I see them, I look and I go, wow, you don't look like other 80 year olds.

Speaker A 00:40:22

I know.

Speaker A 00:40:23

And it's partly because we live life to the fullest.

Speaker A 00:40:26

Mom also always said that, you know, when she dies, she's not going to be like the Egyptians and have all her money buried with her, so why not just spend it, right?

Speaker A 00:40:37

And so, you know, I want to take advantage of life.

Speaker A 00:40:41

So I do have hobbies and my husband and I like to travel.

Speaker A 00:40:46

We have an adult child now, is 23 years old, lives in the basement because housing is horrible around here, but really just has their own life and we do our own thing.

Speaker A 00:40:56

And so every month Donnie and I try and go on an adventure.

Speaker A 00:41:00

That's our thing that we say, we like to go on an adventure and we'll go to someplace we've never been before, do something new and different.

Speaker A 00:41:07

And life has to be more than just work and it has to be more than just, you know, the day to day drudge.

Speaker A 00:41:15

We have to find those things that make us happy.

Speaker A 00:41:17

And so yeah, I often eat dessert first because I just feel like I need to do that and, and it feeds my own soul.

Speaker A 00:41:25

If I'm going to serve others, I need to, to also feed myself right.

Speaker A 00:41:29

And, and make sure that I'm full enough that I can help serve others.

Speaker A 00:41:34

And so that's really what I do.

Speaker B 00:41:37

Yeah, that is great advice.

Speaker B 00:41:38

And I think like you say that the laughing and joking aside from that is the fact that the first thing that I'm sure so many people thought was, well, you can't do that.

Speaker B 00:41:47

Dessert comes after and then you suddenly realize what a trap you're in or what a shoulda, woulda, coulda, how life happens to be.

Speaker B 00:41:55

And that opens a whole conversation floodgate of ideas and what life should look like and not.

Speaker B 00:42:01

And I think that release you can, you can almost feel it, you know, even just talking about it now.

Speaker A 00:42:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A 00:42:08

Just.

Speaker A 00:42:08

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:42:09

We have so many things that allow us, that weigh on us and you know, and it's, it's.

Speaker A 00:42:16

And as caregivers, I mean educators are caregivers too.

Speaker A 00:42:20

As caregivers we tend to care for others and not ourselves.

Speaker A 00:42:24

And so it really is important that we care for ourselves because otherwise our cup is empty and then we can't pour it into somebody else.

Speaker A 00:42:33

And so it's not selfishness, it's self care.

Speaker B 00:42:37

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:42:37

And beautifully put.

Speaker B 00:42:40

And is there a resource you'd like to share?

Speaker B 00:42:42

And this can be.

Speaker B 00:42:43

Be personal, it could be professional.

Speaker B 00:42:45

And it can be anything from a podcast, video, song, film, book, and anything you like.

Speaker B 00:42:49

But something that springs to mind.

Speaker A 00:42:52

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:42:53

For those who are faithful.

Speaker A 00:42:56

I recently purchased a devotional called Resilient Faith and it's written by a former foster kid.

Speaker A 00:43:06

And it's a great resource and I wish I had it in front of me because I can't remember his last name.

Speaker A 00:43:12

His first name is Michael.

Speaker A 00:43:13

So if you look up Resilience, Resilient Faith Michael, it'll show up.

Speaker A 00:43:17

But it's a, it's a journal that he wrote from his experience as a foster kid.

Speaker A 00:43:23

And each day he has a little devotional that he talks about, you know, like perseverance and then he'll have a Bible passage and then on the flip side you have some journal questions and it's very simple, very easy to read.

Speaker A 00:43:38

But it really made me think about what I have and what I can give to others based on this faith based view of his own trauma and how he came out the other end.

Speaker A 00:43:56

And I like the fact that he pairs topics.

Speaker A 00:43:59

So the one day you'll read about hope, you always read about something positive first.

Speaker A 00:44:04

And then the next day you read about despair, despair.

Speaker A 00:44:07

And he references back to what made you have hope here to get you out of that despair.

Speaker A 00:44:13

And I just really liked how he relayed that out and from his own faith, but also his own experiences.

Speaker B 00:44:22

I think that's amazing.

Speaker B 00:44:23

And then like you say, we talked about that ripple effect before, but that paying it forward and wanting to share from an experience which I can't relate to because I haven't been in the foster system or anything like, like that, but I could relate to it like say by understanding the, the idea of life in terms of how you're looking at it and, and how you sort of show up in the world and react to those things as well.

Speaker B 00:44:45

So.

Speaker B 00:44:45

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker B 00:44:46

Thanks so much.

Speaker B 00:44:48

Now obviously the acronym FIRE is important to us here.

Speaker B 00:44:52

Education on farm.

Speaker B 00:44:53

By that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment.

Speaker B 00:44:58

What is it that strikes you when you see that?

Speaker B 00:45:00

Either each word or as a whole.

Speaker B 00:45:02

But yeah, something that you feel is impactful from it.

Speaker A 00:45:06

So one of the things that I do is I find Ways to feed my soul.

Speaker A 00:45:10

Not just having fun, but also.

Speaker A 00:45:13

So I am always.

Speaker A 00:45:14

Every morning I read some type of devotional, and I'm part of an accountability group, and this acronym really makes me think about what we talk about in that accountability group.

Speaker A 00:45:25

So in that group, we share with each other.

Speaker A 00:45:28

We all read a book together, but then we also talk about what's our goals for the next week, what's our goals for the next quarter, what's our goals for whatever.

Speaker A 00:45:37

And then we give each other feedback.

Speaker A 00:45:39

We also share our own challenges.

Speaker A 00:45:41

So when we.

Speaker A 00:45:43

We talk about what is it that's weighing us down?

Speaker A 00:45:46

That's not that we can't reach this goal for this week, and we are that positive influence on each other.

Speaker A 00:45:53

Of, okay, have you thought about doing this?

Speaker A 00:45:54

Have you thought about doing that?

Speaker A 00:45:57

So.

Speaker A 00:45:57

So I find having that accountability group is what makes me have fire.

Speaker A 00:46:04

Right.

Speaker A 00:46:05

I have that feedback from them on whether or not it's a win that I share or a challenge that I share.

Speaker A 00:46:11

We inspire each other, especially when we share our wins.

Speaker A 00:46:15

That's really important, right?

Speaker A 00:46:16

To share wins with each other, because that's where the inspiration comes.

Speaker A 00:46:20

Wow, this happened for you and this happened for me, and there's something bigger going on.

Speaker A 00:46:27

And we're inspired to continue to move forward, especially when we're reaching challenges.

Speaker A 00:46:32

To even celebrate a small win gives us that feeling of, oh, we can do more.

Speaker A 00:46:37

And then, of course, we.

Speaker A 00:46:39

Because of being in this accountability group, I feel like because we choose to do this, we already have that resilience in ourselves.

Speaker A 00:46:48

We know we need our cups filled.

Speaker A 00:46:50

We know we need somebody to hold us accountable.

Speaker A 00:46:52

We know.

Speaker A 00:46:54

And so really taking advantage of that.

Speaker A 00:46:57

And then, of course, because of being in this group and helping each other, we're empowered to serve others.

Speaker A 00:47:04

And that's really what we're about, is trying to serve others.

Speaker B 00:47:08

Yeah, that's beautifully put.

Speaker B 00:47:10

And the reason I ask these questions at the end is partly because it's a way of us kind of bringing together every conversation, despite the fact that our topics might change, But I think they're often very human.

Speaker B 00:47:21

And also every person.

Speaker B 00:47:22

Person's perspective and understanding is slightly different.

Speaker B 00:47:25

And I think there's something about the togetherness, but the individualization of people's perceptions of these things, which is brilliant because it means I can show up as me and be completely individual as me and take anything as me, but then, like, say, understand how it affects other people and how you can support other people and then move forward from that point of view.

Speaker B 00:47:46

So I love that it's absolutely brilliant.

Speaker B 00:47:47

Thank you so much.

Speaker B 00:47:49

So tell us, where do you like people to go and find out more about what you're doing, how they can connect or just sort of take that next step?

Speaker B 00:47:58

If what we've been talking about is something that could be supportive for people, sure.

Speaker A 00:48:02

So the best place to find me is on LinkedIn and just search my name, Sharon Dunlevy.

Speaker A 00:48:09

And it's D U N L E V Y.

Speaker A 00:48:12

And that's really just the best place to reach out to me is through LinkedIn.

Speaker A 00:48:15

LinkedIn.

Speaker A 00:48:16

Because I try and do as much as I can there.

Speaker B 00:48:18

Fantastic.

Speaker B 00:48:20

Lovely.

Speaker B 00:48:20

Well, Sharon, thank you so much indeed.

Speaker B 00:48:21

And we'll have a direct link to that in the show notes as well, so people can, can click straight through.

Speaker B 00:48:26

Keep up the great work, keep up the conversations.

Speaker B 00:48:28

I think that's the biggest takeaway for me is, like I said, all those touch points and that ongoing ripple effect is so, so important.

Speaker B 00:48:34

So, yeah, really appreciate your time and, yeah, look forward to hearing more about it in the future.

Speaker B 00:48:39

Thanks so much.

Speaker A 00:48:40

Thanks for having me.

Speaker A 00:48:41

Mark Park.

Speaker B 00:48:42

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.