The Transformative Power of Neuroplasticity in Education with Arrowsmith

Speaker A 00:00:00

The principles of neuroplasticity need to be in place for the brain to change.

Speaker A 00:00:04

And it is absolutely possible.

Speaker A 00:00:06

So the more you do something that is positive for positive cognitive health or positive development, the more the brain will change towards that.

Speaker A 00:00:18

And, you know, you raise a really important topic there, I think, Mark, around what information we are being presented with these days.

Speaker A 00:00:27

Again, I speak to educators around the world and I hear what is important for our young people.

Speaker A 00:00:34

And in this world of AI, it is absolutely essential that this cognitive function is strong in their lives because this is what is going to help them understand whether the information they are receiving is true.

Speaker A 00:00:56

We also know that people with learning difficulties, we see the, the struggles and don't really have that tool to, you know, to move them through or overcome that difficulty.

Speaker A 00:01:09

Now we do.

Speaker A 00:01:10

Now we have the capability to change the brain.

Speaker A 00:01:15

The thing is, we all have these cognitive functions in our brain, all of us, and so we absolutely can enhance them.

Speaker A 00:01:22

You are not only helping one person.

Speaker A 00:01:25

I always talk about this ripple effect that occurs because that person's interactions with others are impacted for the rest of their life.

Speaker A 00:01:36

They are turning up, they are striving, they are trying to do their best, and it can get better for them if, you know, with this concept of neuroplasticity, but that is resilience, because they are actually stepping into fire.

Speaker B 00:01:53

Hello.

Speaker B 00:01:54

Welcome back.

Speaker B 00:01:55

That was Debbie Gilmore and she's the executive director of Aerosmith.

Speaker B 00:01:58

Now we're going to be talking about neuroplasticity and the ability for the brain to reorganize itself, both in structure and in function.

Speaker B 00:02:05

This, of course, has amazing implications for people learning and certainly within the education system.

Speaker B 00:02:10

Now, Aerosmith uses neuroplastic principles to fundamentally improve the quality of life of individuals.

Speaker B 00:02:15

But at any age and from any starting point.

Speaker B 00:02:18

Now, with these principles and this understanding and the way Aerosmith are able to help and support and train people, this has a really amazing ripple effect around the world in terms of how we can support children and young people moving forward.

Speaker B 00:02:32

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast, the place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Speaker B 00:02:46

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Speaker B 00:02:54

Hi, Debbie.

Speaker B 00:02:55

Thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Fire podcast.

Speaker B 00:02:58

The one thing that I'm very passionate about and I hear so much, is the idea that this is the way education looks.

Speaker B 00:03:04

This is how you have to fit into the system, you can't change anything.

Speaker B 00:03:07

Or maybe you have to change it in a certain way.

Speaker B 00:03:09

So I think our conversation about taking control of what's possible, how you can make that work for you, and understand, I think more importantly how that's going to.

Speaker B 00:03:17

Can change is such a fascinating thing, but such an important thing for so many people.

Speaker B 00:03:21

So, yeah, thanks so much for being here.

Speaker A 00:03:22

My absolute pleasure, Mark.

Speaker B 00:03:25

So take us into Arrowsmith.

Speaker B 00:03:28

What is it if people haven't come across it before, sort of in a nutshell.

Speaker B 00:03:32

And then we can sort of dive into all the different things that you cover.

Speaker A 00:03:35

Sure.

Speaker A 00:03:36

Aerosmith.

Speaker A 00:03:37

We describe it as a cognitive program.

Speaker A 00:03:40

So basically, exactly as that description is, it works on cognition, it works on changing the brain using the principles of neuroplasticity, that we can enhance our cognitive capacity to learn more efficiently and effectively, to get through our lives a lot easier without any struggles that we all have.

Speaker A 00:04:08

We all have a cognitive profile that has some very good strengths and some weaknesses.

Speaker A 00:04:14

And we can.

Speaker A 00:04:16

We have control.

Speaker A 00:04:18

We know this now.

Speaker A 00:04:19

We have control over how we use our brain, how we can strengthen our brain for all different sorts of reasons.

Speaker A 00:04:26

So it's.

Speaker A 00:04:28

It's definitely not an academic program, but I like to describe it as sitting underneath an academic program.

Speaker A 00:04:34

Because if you think about it, an academic program needs the brain to be working really well.

Speaker A 00:04:40

So if we enhance the capacity of the brain to learn, the academic program, students are having a easier life at school.

Speaker B 00:04:50

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B 00:04:51

I can imagine.

Speaker B 00:04:52

And so the first thing that strikes me is, are we talking about how your brain has developed, let's say naturally or biologically?

Speaker B 00:05:01

Or are we talking about how your brain is also developed in terms of the environment that you've grown up in?

Speaker B 00:05:06

And I guess maybe it's a combination of the two.

Speaker B 00:05:09

So it doesn't matter where you start from.

Speaker B 00:05:11

You have the ability to then create your world, as it were, in that way, sort of going forward.

Speaker A 00:05:16

Exactly.

Speaker A 00:05:17

It is a combination because if you think about it, that general development that we have, you know, as we.

Speaker A 00:05:24

As we grow and get older.

Speaker A 00:05:27

But if you think about it and going.

Speaker A 00:05:30

Speaking to the environment piece, our brain shapes how we operate in the world.

Speaker A 00:05:38

It shapes our experiences.

Speaker A 00:05:40

And it's those experiences then that help us understand our world.

Speaker A 00:05:47

Now, educators would know that we can have three children in a playground that all describe an experience very, very differently.

Speaker A 00:05:59

And you can even have a teacher on the playground looking at what has happened, and they see it very differently.

Speaker A 00:06:07

This is what I'm talking about.

Speaker A 00:06:10

Our brains help us understand the world around us.

Speaker A 00:06:15

So it is absolutely, Mark.

Speaker A 00:06:16

The combination of that and what we know now is through the principles of neuroplasticity, that the brain can change and we can enhance and strengthen all those aspects of our brain.

Speaker A 00:06:33

I'm not talking areas here.

Speaker A 00:06:34

I'm talking about the cognitive functions or the networks and regions of the brain.

Speaker B 00:06:40

And the thing that I came across before I even understood what this was or anything, because I'm a musician.

Speaker B 00:06:46

And so I.

Speaker B 00:06:48

I understood that in order to be more comfortable in what I was doing.

Speaker B 00:06:53

Success is a.

Speaker B 00:06:54

Is a relative term, but in terms of being more comfortable in the areas I was, whether it was my.

Speaker B 00:06:59

The first time I was in junior wind band, and you were super nervous because you had people that you've seen a year or two older than you doing amazing things, or as I entered the profession, or I had, you know, a concert which was what I deemed to be sort of the highlight of my career.

Speaker B 00:07:13

In order to sort of put myself in a position where the perception of what I was doing was different, My understanding of what I was trying to do, what my focus was going to be, I felt that I needed to have an idea of where I could put myself in order to make that happen.

Speaker B 00:07:28

So whether it's being less nervous, whether it was understanding I'm doing it for the audience rather than the colleagues around me or whatever it happened to be.

Speaker B 00:07:35

And that made a really big difference to how I sort of showed up and how I wanted to be able to perform.

Speaker B 00:07:40

And I.

Speaker B 00:07:41

I don't know how close that is to the sort of thing you're talking about, but it was certainly something that was sort of my beginning of awareness that I could change my experience in a different situation without my environment seeming to be different.

Speaker A 00:07:55

Yeah, it's really interesting because you describe beautifully how that goal setting is important in what we do in our life, how we feel successful, how we put the experience around ourselves, the environment, to make us feel successful.

Speaker A 00:08:14

This is all very true.

Speaker A 00:08:17

And it was really interesting.

Speaker A 00:08:20

Through my education career, I had never heard about neuroplasticity.

Speaker A 00:08:27

Even though it was happening in many, many fields in education, it wasn't really spoken about.

Speaker A 00:08:34

And I remember very clearly when I was at Teachers College, lecturers, telling me, the brains your students have are going to be the brains they have for the whole of their lives, which was such a closed concept.

Speaker A 00:08:49

And now we know there's science now that tells us that the brain can change.

Speaker A 00:08:54

And now incorporating that into education, where we specifically, specifically target and strengthen specific cognitive functions of the brain, to work better.

Speaker A 00:09:06

It's so that environment that you talked about in putting yourself in the music environment and being focused and engaged and creating an environment where you will succeed is definitely part of it.

Speaker A 00:09:24

But I am probably will say not the all of it.

Speaker A 00:09:30

You also, in that environment, you practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced to get better.

Speaker A 00:09:37

And that is how neuroplasticity works.

Speaker A 00:09:39

It is targeting specific in certainly in terms of Aerosmith, targeting specific functions of the brain and strengthening those little bit by little bit.

Speaker A 00:09:51

One of the other things that in using that music analogy, Mark is not doing anything too hard.

Speaker A 00:10:01

You're not going to perform.

Speaker A 00:10:03

When you're learning an instrument, you are not going to perform a piece that is beyond your capability at this point.

Speaker A 00:10:13

You will work towards that.

Speaker A 00:10:14

That's also a principle of neuroplasticity.

Speaker A 00:10:16

In Aerosmith, we only give participants something that we know or the system knows that they will achieve.

Speaker A 00:10:27

Which is not always the case in school for students.

Speaker A 00:10:30

Quite often in school they are given something that teachers know is too difficult.

Speaker A 00:10:37

And that's why we put in support structures or strategies or accommodations or assistive technology, because we know they're not going to do it.

Speaker A 00:10:48

But actually that is taking away the principle of neuroplasticity that actually the brain can change.

Speaker A 00:10:55

And so by a capacity based program such as Aerosmith, where you are actually targeting and strengthening the brain functions to perform better, to overcome or overcome any challenges that those functions have, or move them along a continuum of functioning to be getting better.

Speaker A 00:11:17

That is what we need to do in the principles of neuroplasticity.

Speaker A 00:11:22

Exactly.

Speaker A 00:11:22

Like learning an instrument and performing pieces.

Speaker A 00:11:26

They, you know, a music teacher will never ask you to do too much that you are not ready for.

Speaker A 00:11:32

So it's very similar to that.

Speaker A 00:11:35

The principles of neuroplasticity need to be in place for the brain to change.

Speaker A 00:11:39

And it is absolutely possible.

Speaker A 00:11:41

And I have to say, until I came across that word, which was only now about 15 years ago, and I was shocked, after having done multiple postgraduate degrees and courses in education that I had not heard about, heard that word until 15 years ago.

Speaker A 00:12:03

I was actually quite shocked about that.

Speaker B 00:12:06

And so in the reverse of what you've just said, is it possible for there to be a negative side to this?

Speaker B 00:12:13

Because like you said, if there's people in an education system which are being given things which are too hard, they feel like they're always struggling, they're not going to be able to do it, or they're a subgroup of the people that are doing X, Y, And Z, does that kind of change the brain as well to sort of give you, oh, and actually this is where I am and this is what I can do and what I can't do in a more negative way?

Speaker A 00:12:34

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A 00:12:35

Neuroplasticity in itself is a neutral concept.

Speaker A 00:12:39

So.

Speaker A 00:12:40

And the.

Speaker A 00:12:41

But the basic principle here is the brain will change to what it does the most.

Speaker A 00:12:48

So the more you do something that is positive for positive cognitive health or positive development, the more the brain will change towards that.

Speaker A 00:12:59

The more you do that is leading towards a negative impact of neuroplasticity, the more the brain will change to do that.

Speaker A 00:13:12

One thing that seems to have been on the lips and high on the list of topics that I've been asked to talk about recently is the, is attention and the use of screens and devices.

Speaker A 00:13:30

So this is, you know, this is what I have been talking about for a bit now.

Speaker A 00:13:37

And because there is this connotation that screens are negative, that we shouldn't be using screens so much, we.

Speaker A 00:13:45

It's, it's not what we should do.

Speaker A 00:13:48

But actually I'd like to say it's what we're doing on the screens that cause less attention.

Speaker A 00:13:57

Now, recently I just did a presentation on attention and looked at attention spans going back a few decades, and they've been on the decline for a number of decades now.

Speaker A 00:14:09

And then there's this notion of digital attention span which has also been on the decline for a little, a little now.

Speaker A 00:14:17

But if I go back to that notion of what are we doing on screen, say, in the, in the recent past that we weren't doing on screens, say 10 years ago, what we tend to do now on screens for anyone, and I'm guilty of this, anyone using social media or receiving information in quick bursts, we look and we flick, we look and we move on.

Speaker A 00:14:46

We look and we keep taking very short bursts.

Speaker A 00:14:51

So going back to that principle of neuroplasticity that the brain will change to what it does most, that's what we're doing.

Speaker A 00:15:00

We're actually controlling our brain or forcing our brain to change, to not pay attention.

Speaker A 00:15:09

Actually, it's not the screen itself or the device itself that is doing that.

Speaker A 00:15:15

It's what we're doing with it.

Speaker A 00:15:17

It's the software or the input that we're looking at that's causing us to do that.

Speaker A 00:15:23

I'm totally guilty of that as probably most of the population.

Speaker B 00:15:29

But when you know that's the case, like you say, you can put things in place to do that, you can limit your time, you can understand that.

Speaker B 00:15:36

I know I'm doing this and it's okay, but my awareness is then going to change it because like you said, the opposite of that screen time.

Speaker B 00:15:44

I remember when my kids were smaller, you know, they would happily play, I say positive games, but games which are kind of built to keep you going to, to persevere, to do, you know, and their concentration for that will be as long as they'd be allowed to do it.

Speaker B 00:15:58

But that makes perfect sense now, like you say, because that's what that's trying to do.

Speaker B 00:16:02

It's trying to keep you involved, it's trying to get you to get better, to go to the next level, to get more rewards, whatever those things happen to be.

Speaker B 00:16:08

Whereas I say the social media scrolling is just exactly what that's going to do.

Speaker B 00:16:12

And also the information that's coming to you is so random now and it may be right, it may be fake news, it might be just like you're saying, inane, something which just happens to be coming up on your feed.

Speaker B 00:16:22

So it makes perfect sense that it works on both sides.

Speaker A 00:16:25

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A 00:16:26

And you know, you raise a really important topic there, I think, Mark, around what information we are being presented with these days.

Speaker A 00:16:36

Again, I speak to educators around the world and I hear, you know, what is important.

Speaker A 00:16:43

What, what is important for our young people.

Speaker A 00:16:45

And in this world of AI which is here, and we're in it, it's not coming.

Speaker A 00:16:51

We're absolutely in it right now, our young people and humans in general.

Speaker A 00:16:58

But I, you know, I'm very focused on young people.

Speaker A 00:17:01

They need the cognitive function that we use every single day in all aspects of our lives.

Speaker A 00:17:11

The cognitive function that allows us to reason, to be, have logical thinking and critical thinking.

Speaker A 00:17:19

It is absolutely essential that this cognitive function is strong in their lives because this is what is going to help them understand whether the information they are receiving is true.

Speaker A 00:17:38

Does it have an algorithm behind it that is flavoring the information that they're being given?

Speaker A 00:17:46

Does it make sense?

Speaker A 00:17:48

Are they being, Is it, you know, kind of almost true or not so true?

Speaker A 00:17:56

And the other thing they really need this cognitive function to be strong for is because to use AI properly, they need to be able to ask it critical questions and very clear prompts.

Speaker A 00:18:13

Now, if critical thinking and logical reasoning isn't in place, or if it's not operating in the brain as strong as it should be, the prompts you are asking are not going to be the best they can be, and therefore the information you're fed back is not going to be as strong or as effective as you hoped it would be.

Speaker A 00:18:36

So it is.

Speaker A 00:18:36

It's so important.

Speaker A 00:18:37

Now, I think, you know, this critical thinking and logical reasoning.

Speaker A 00:18:45

While schools and educators can provide experiences for students to be involved in that type of thinking, actually this happens in the brain.

Speaker A 00:18:58

Logical thinking, critical thinking happens in the brain.

Speaker A 00:19:02

It's actually literally a function of the brain.

Speaker B 00:19:05

And I think that's why AI is so divisive in so many ways, because I've used it and have so much support in what I do, whether it's workflows, whether it's getting information, whether it's doing things that would take me hours and been able to, you know, make that work.

Speaker B 00:19:24

But, like, say I've got better at it over time because I ask better questions.

Speaker B 00:19:28

I know what I'm trying to, what I'd like to be the case and taking what I need to.

Speaker B 00:19:32

And the resources that I'm putting in are things that I'm happy are going to be positive ones and things that I'm aware of.

Speaker B 00:19:39

But I guess it also, the flip side of that is the fact you have the haves and have nots, because the people that are then using AI, like you say, you don't have that critical thinking and haven't been taught the way that these things can work best, are going to take you down a different path, which might be much more negative or certainly not as informed.

Speaker B 00:19:55

And therefore, you also then, like you say, get the algorithms sort of supporting the track that you've already gone down.

Speaker B 00:20:02

So the divide probably gets even more than just the good education, bad education, good class, good school, bad school, or whatever you think that might be currently, because I guess the.

Speaker B 00:20:12

The fork in the road, as it were, is going to have a much more.

Speaker B 00:20:16

A wider angle, which is going to take people much faster down a different path.

Speaker A 00:20:20

Absolutely.

Speaker A 00:20:21

And unless we have this good critical thinking function operating our brains, really, we.

Speaker A 00:20:33

It's.

Speaker A 00:20:33

It's, as you say, going to lead us down a path that is, you know, not necessarily where we should be going.

Speaker B 00:20:42

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

Speaker B 00:20:45

There's.

Speaker B 00:20:45

There's about 4 million podcasts we could talk about wherever they end up going.

Speaker A 00:20:49

Exactly, exactly.

Speaker A 00:20:51

It's.

Speaker A 00:20:51

It's actually probably the hottest topic around the world, but in education, and I think part of this has.

Speaker A 00:20:59

We have to put, you know, we quite often put say at Aerosmith, putting the brain in education.

Speaker A 00:21:05

I want to put the brain in AI in education right now, because it is going to be so critical in the future.

Speaker B 00:21:13

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:21:14

So let's talk About Aerosmith specifically.

Speaker B 00:21:17

So what is it?

Speaker B 00:21:19

How does the system work?

Speaker B 00:21:20

How do you provide it?

Speaker B 00:21:21

How does that kind of work for those people that might be thinking, I've got something here which I know is important to me, but I wouldn't know where to start or how it's going to sort of affect me in that sort of face to face wave?

Speaker A 00:21:33

Yeah, sure.

Speaker A 00:21:34

So Aerosmith, as I talked about, is a cognitive program that works on strengthening the cognitive functions of the brain to work more efficiently and effectively, which makes our life a lot easier.

Speaker A 00:21:47

And the program's been in operation for over 47 years now.

Speaker A 00:21:51

And we work with organizations around the world where they implement Aerosmith in their organization, mostly in schools.

Speaker A 00:22:00

But we have a broad range of application, of course, because we all have brains that can be strengthened.

Speaker A 00:22:09

So not only in school environments, but in coaching environments, in abi, tbi.

Speaker A 00:22:19

We have seen great impact on enhancing brains of, you know, that population.

Speaker A 00:22:27

So those organizations engage in an agreement with us and we train facilitators.

Speaker A 00:22:36

It is not a, you know, subscription where you can, you know, buy, you know, a piece of software and off you go.

Speaker A 00:22:48

I think one of the.

Speaker A 00:22:51

One of the best ways we've been implementing Aerosmith is by having a trained facilitator.

Speaker A 00:22:57

So that facilitator is trained by us.

Speaker A 00:23:00

We want to keep the integrity of that training because we know the methodology of our program works and has that impact on individuals.

Speaker A 00:23:09

So we train people to deliver the program in their organization.

Speaker A 00:23:16

And the program and how it is implemented can really be customized to the organization itself.

Speaker A 00:23:26

And what cannot be customized is the program that is inherent on delivering those good results.

Speaker A 00:23:35

We, as I said, talk.

Speaker A 00:23:37

We've implemented in the program across all, many, many populations, from all students in a school.

Speaker A 00:23:44

And there's a number of schools around the world now where Aerosmith is implemented, where students in a grade enhance a particular cognitive function in one year, then the next year they enhance another cognitive function, and so on and so forth.

Speaker A 00:24:01

So that by the time they get through school, they've had the chance to enhance a particular cognitive function each year at school.

Speaker A 00:24:08

That's really enhancing putting the brain in education, really.

Speaker A 00:24:14

Then there are other applications or other populations that schools decide to work with, and that's their students with learning difficulties.

Speaker A 00:24:22

And we've had a huge history in our organization of working with individuals with learning difficulties and strengthening the different cognitive functions of the brain to literally overcome their learning difficulty.

Speaker A 00:24:38

You know, one thing that we know about learning difficulties is we see the struggles that students have.

Speaker A 00:24:45

And I Certainly saw this when I was an educator, as a teacher, as an assistant principal, as a principal, and then as an administrator in a school system where systems schools were putting in great resources for their students that were struggling.

Speaker A 00:25:04

They had great teachers with those students, they had great programs with their students.

Speaker A 00:25:09

But they were all coming from a place where we would put in strategies or accommodations to help the students move through versus this principle where we can actually change the brain.

Speaker A 00:25:25

And we also know that people with learning difficulties, we see the struggles and don't really have that tool to, you know, to move them through or overcome that difficulty.

Speaker A 00:25:42

Now we do.

Speaker A 00:25:42

Now we have the capability to change the brain.

Speaker A 00:25:47

We also know that diagnoses are created by observing the behaviours or the struggles that a student has.

Speaker A 00:25:58

What we like to say at Arrowsmith is we go underneath those diagnoses, we really go underneath and look at the cognitive functions that are underperforming, that are causing those challenges or behaviors which are leading to, you know, learning struggles or that individual needing help in their lives.

Speaker A 00:26:20

So yeah, we, we take students from and I can't do to an I can do mindset.

Speaker B 00:26:29

I think that's amazing.

Speaker B 00:26:30

And I think it also brings in that sense of what real personalized learning is because like I say, so many of these labels are because you can't do X, Y or Z at this particular age or that you're never going to be able to do it.

Speaker B 00:26:44

So therefore you're always going to be in this particular category or this particular grade or, you know, however the system's working for you.

Speaker B 00:26:50

So to immediately change that to a sense of I can't do it yet, or we can find a way that's going to help support me to do this.

Speaker B 00:26:58

And also, as we know in life generally, there are certain things that we're more good at than others.

Speaker B 00:27:04

And actually being able to have whatever your base level needs to be of, of something and then focusing on other things is going to make your whole experience of learning a completely different thing.

Speaker B 00:27:14

Whether it's just I'm good at maths or not good at maths, or whether we're good at English or arts or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker A 00:27:20

Exactly.

Speaker A 00:27:21

You know, it's so fascinating when you look at the functions of the brain, Mark, that the same functions you need in reading and writing, there is the same subset of functions that you need in mathematics and in science.

Speaker A 00:27:37

So it's.

Speaker A 00:27:38

The functions are always used.

Speaker A 00:27:41

It's really interesting that they are the same whether you like language or you like science or mathematics.

Speaker A 00:27:53

The Functions.

Speaker A 00:27:53

There's a set of functions, cognitive functions, that always need to be working well.

Speaker A 00:28:01

And this is what, you know, that cohort approach or that year after year approach is where we're trying to impact or, and strengthen the brains of students because we know that this subset they're going to need for their whole entire life and lifelong learning.

Speaker A 00:28:17

And I really like your point, Mark, around individualized learning.

Speaker A 00:28:22

I've heard it used so often over 40 years now in education about individualized learning.

Speaker A 00:28:29

I really haven't seen a program that is so individualized as Aerosmith.

Speaker A 00:28:34

It is absolutely focused and targeted to the cognitive profile of an individual.

Speaker A 00:28:41

It's not grade based, it's not curriculum based, it's not age based.

Speaker A 00:28:45

In fact, I always like to throw in the fact that our oldest student in Aerosmith across the world has been 85, because neuroplasticity works right across our lifespan.

Speaker A 00:28:56

But it's, it's absolutely personalized and individualized to the cognitive profile that we have.

Speaker B 00:29:04

And I think the age things are really important, really important factor because so many people are like, oh, well, I've been at school, I'm too old to learn something new.

Speaker B 00:29:12

I'm too old to change this.

Speaker B 00:29:13

Or the habits are what they are.

Speaker B 00:29:14

So to know that you can take control of that whenever it is is really fascinating.

Speaker B 00:29:19

And it also, it also just reminded me of, like we said about the AI because I saw recently, I'm a tutoring company that's now got an AI that sort of does personalized learning and inverted commas with a particular topic or a particular part of maths, I think is the, the expert.

Speaker B 00:29:36

The example that I saw was, sure.

Speaker B 00:29:38

And then all of a sudden the idea that as a student I'm understanding how my brain is working and what I can do to help myself in that side of things and then be able to learn whatever subject or whatever particular piece of educational information is.

Speaker B 00:29:53

I'm trying to learn at my pace in a way that's working as, and then being able to sort of understand how that could be, could be fit amongst any particular subject or any particular sort of learning environment that then suddenly becomes very exciting.

Speaker B 00:30:07

And like, say, the, the traditional school system or the traditional sort of mass education suddenly just seems like, why would you even bother?

Speaker B 00:30:14

As long as you've got the safeguardings in place, as long as you've got people that are mentoring and supporting, giving you the environment that you need to do that, surely it's got to change, because I don't see any reason or how it couldn't be because people will start doing it on their own because they'll realize this is much me than, than what the, the normal starting point was.

Speaker A 00:30:32

Absolutely.

Speaker A 00:30:32

I mean, we are always going to have content or we all always going to have knowledge that we need to know for various reasons, whether it's to get through school, whether it's for our work, but we also also know that we need our brain to be able to understand that.

Speaker A 00:30:50

So this is where this concept of lifelong learning is really critical in this AI age because we have the capability, we will use the technology to be able to do that lifelong learning.

Speaker A 00:31:06

But we need the brain to be able to learn.

Speaker A 00:31:09

And these are not separate pieces.

Speaker A 00:31:12

Your brain is always going to be there and you always need our brain.

Speaker A 00:31:16

We always need our brains to learn or to do whatever we, we want to do.

Speaker A 00:31:21

It's, I find it fascinating actually when we go through the day, do we ever think, actually it's my brain that's making me do this, it's my brain that is driving me to do this task.

Speaker A 00:31:34

We just get on with our lives.

Speaker A 00:31:35

Right?

Speaker A 00:31:36

But actually it's our brain that is driving us through the day.

Speaker A 00:31:42

Our brain in our heart, let's be clear.

Speaker A 00:31:43

But, but if we, if we have to have our brain fit and healthy, we quite often talk about cognitive health.

Speaker A 00:31:51

It is really critically important in our lives.

Speaker A 00:31:54

And as we're getting older, I have to say, I have a birthday coming up.

Speaker A 00:31:57

It's really important that we keep our brains fit and healthy.

Speaker A 00:32:01

And a cognitive program can do that.

Speaker B 00:32:04

And I think then you start to see your life as a whole, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:32:07

It's like in order to have a healthy brain, I need to be healthy physically.

Speaker B 00:32:11

If I'm suddenly really struggling later in the afternoon and I've not drunk any water all day, then that's going to have a physical effect on how, you know.

Speaker B 00:32:17

And, and I think that understanding that we as a human species and certainly when you're in school and like say young people, understanding how all of these things affect the same as the social media scrolling or, you know, everything that we do has an effect in some way.

Speaker B 00:32:31

And that isn't to say that you should ban this or not do this, but to understand these positive things that I can do is going to help understanding that this is where I might fall down more often than not, because that's where my life has been so far.

Speaker B 00:32:42

But I'd like that to be different.

Speaker B 00:32:44

And now I realize there's a way of doing that and I'm not Just, this is who I am.

Speaker B 00:32:48

This is my box.

Speaker B 00:32:49

Everyone keeps telling me, I, I'm going to be like this forever.

Speaker A 00:32:52

Yeah, I, I really like what you've said there, Mark.

Speaker A 00:32:55

And if I just, you know, delve into that group of people that have learning difficulties.

Speaker A 00:33:02

And as I said, we, we've dealt, you know, we've been working with people with learning difficulties for 47 years now, and that's how they feel.

Speaker A 00:33:10

They feel stuck.

Speaker A 00:33:11

And there's huge amounts of research around the implication of having a learning difficulty on mental health.

Speaker A 00:33:20

It's very, very connected.

Speaker A 00:33:23

And so whatever we can do to enhance the brain to be effective and learn well reduces the impact it has.

Speaker A 00:33:32

And I want to, I don't want to say mental health.

Speaker A 00:33:34

I want to say mental ill health.

Speaker A 00:33:36

And so I really think that we've seen it in our work.

Speaker A 00:33:41

Educators see it.

Speaker A 00:33:43

There's something we can do about it now.

Speaker A 00:33:45

We absolutely can control what we're doing.

Speaker A 00:33:49

And it doesn't.

Speaker A 00:33:50

We don't have to have a I'm being done to view here or this is the lot I've been given in life.

Speaker A 00:33:59

No, neuroplasticity is such a hopeful thing.

Speaker A 00:34:02

We absolutely have the power to change our brain.

Speaker A 00:34:05

It's absolutely amazing.

Speaker A 00:34:07

Magical concept is actually, it's not magical at all.

Speaker A 00:34:11

It's a lot of work that an individual does and to maximum benefit.

Speaker B 00:34:18

And this is why I love doing the podcast so much, because someone listening might have seen that word somewhere and go, yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker B 00:34:25

I'll think about that one day.

Speaker B 00:34:26

But to have a conversation where you can understand the impact that you can have on somebody's life, even by just opening that door a little bit to see, ah, the possibilities, you know, suddenly a world of wonder, rather than it being closed off like you said before, just that starting point just changes everything from what someone's perception is going to be about what their life is now, but also what it could be going forward, which I think is such a positive thing.

Speaker A 00:34:51

Absolutely.

Speaker A 00:34:52

And for educators, Mark, it really opened a world for me, I have to say, when I saw that, this possibility, and I was working in Sydney at the time and looking for a program for our students that was different than what we were already offering.

Speaker A 00:35:08

And we started looking at various cognitive programs.

Speaker A 00:35:11

And when I saw that actually there was a different approach with that where we could enhance the brain, I went, well, this makes a lot of sense.

Speaker A 00:35:23

We've tried all these other programs.

Speaker A 00:35:26

This makes a lot of sense and it's very effective.

Speaker A 00:35:29

So, yeah, it's very Hopeful.

Speaker B 00:35:32

And it doesn't matter whether your schools say in Sydney, in Canada, in Europe, we're talking about humans.

Speaker B 00:35:38

And I guess that comes down to that personalized idea as well.

Speaker B 00:35:42

We can do it just because of who we are, not because we're confined by any border or system, like you said.

Speaker A 00:35:47

No, no.

Speaker A 00:35:48

The thing is, we all have these cognitive functions in our brain, all of us, and so we absolutely can enhance them.

Speaker A 00:35:55

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:35:55

It doesn't.

Speaker A 00:35:56

We are not curriculum.

Speaker A 00:35:58

We do not have.

Speaker A 00:35:59

Oops, sorry.

Speaker A 00:36:00

We do not have curriculum constraints.

Speaker A 00:36:03

The brain can change.

Speaker A 00:36:05

And that's why our program is not linked with curriculum or anything, because it's got nothing to do with content.

Speaker A 00:36:12

It's all to do with enhancing the function of the brain.

Speaker A 00:36:17

And then that's where the content comes in.

Speaker A 00:36:20

We never say, do this and not this.

Speaker A 00:36:23

It is always both because we want the brain to be enhanced so the learning can occur.

Speaker A 00:36:30

Or the workplace.

Speaker A 00:36:32

You can be more effective in the workplace or, you know, just generally in life, more independent.

Speaker B 00:36:39

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B 00:36:39

And I think the thing that's exciting for me when I hear that is the fact that so often everything gets a bit overwhelming.

Speaker B 00:36:46

So it's that kind of, oh, we've got something that's going to help you in this particular part of reading.

Speaker B 00:36:50

And then there's something else in mass inside.

Speaker B 00:36:52

And then it's like, oh, my word, I'm already overwhelmed by everything I'm supposed to be doing.

Speaker B 00:36:56

And then there's a whole nother layer of everything else I need to do to help me get to wherever someone tells me I meant to be getting to.

Speaker B 00:37:02

To have an idea that this is about me personally and this is going to influence my life across the board and the way that I learn.

Speaker B 00:37:09

And then everything else is going to spiral in a positive way from that.

Speaker B 00:37:12

And so therefore, it's like, well, of course I'm going to take notice and I'm going to want to do that because actually I can see those positive things happening across my life.

Speaker B 00:37:21

And then, like, say, that's a very different prospect.

Speaker B 00:37:24

And that feels of much, like I say, a light and optimistic way of.

Speaker B 00:37:27

Of understanding what's possible.

Speaker B 00:37:29

Like I say, rather than another layer of.

Speaker B 00:37:31

Of expectation or learning above what I'm doing already, which I think is.

Speaker B 00:37:34

Yeah, that's absolutely brilliant.

Speaker A 00:37:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A 00:37:38

We hear this from participants in the program right around the world, and they keep coming back and telling us, you know what, I did this when I was 6 or 10 or 12 or 15, and I wouldn't have got here in my life.

Speaker A 00:37:54

Or here in my career if it wasn't for the program.

Speaker A 00:37:58

And they just keep coming back and telling us this.

Speaker A 00:38:01

And the other thing is, and I should mention that it not only helps that individual, especially if they're struggling with learning, it helps their family dynamic.

Speaker A 00:38:15

It helps them with their siblings, it helps them with their parents.

Speaker A 00:38:18

It has a huge impact on family life.

Speaker A 00:38:20

It has huge impact on parents and their time that they need to devote to getting their child through school.

Speaker A 00:38:30

By overcoming that learning difficulty, you are not only helping one person.

Speaker A 00:38:36

I always talk about this ripple effect that.

Speaker A 00:38:40

That occurs because that person's interactions with others are impacted for the rest of their life.

Speaker A 00:38:47

And that is.

Speaker A 00:38:48

I don't even know what the multiple of that is.

Speaker B 00:38:50

Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker B 00:38:51

It's such an important point.

Speaker B 00:38:52

And like you say that that gives everyone agency of positivity, doesn't it, in.

Speaker B 00:38:58

In those things.

Speaker B 00:38:59

Yeah, I really love that.

Speaker A 00:39:00

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B 00:39:02

I'm curious, is there an education experience or a teacher that you remember which has had an impact?

Speaker B 00:39:08

But I'm curious because of the, like, say, the multiple roles you've got in.

Speaker B 00:39:11

In all the way up to sort of where you are now with Aerosmith.

Speaker B 00:39:14

Was there.

Speaker B 00:39:15

Was it positive?

Speaker B 00:39:16

Was it negative?

Speaker B 00:39:16

Can you sort of see the correlations between maybe what someone said to you now?

Speaker B 00:39:20

You think, oh, they kind of understood this, or they had no idea about that.

Speaker B 00:39:23

But I can now see where all that sort of f.

Speaker B 00:39:25

That.

Speaker B 00:39:26

That sort of experience that you had.

Speaker A 00:39:27

Oh, it's interesting.

Speaker A 00:39:29

I probably not an experience that led me to doing what I'm doing right now, but I think my teachers and my educational experiences all instilled some confidence in me.

Speaker A 00:39:43

I think I had teachers and even in my workplace had leaders that saw what I was good at and encouraged that.

Speaker A 00:39:50

So it kind of gave me an I can do attitude.

Speaker A 00:39:53

For sure, there are things that I probably could enhance my own brain to get better at, but they always found those pieces.

Speaker A 00:40:04

So it gave me confidence.

Speaker A 00:40:06

And I think what that has led me to is stepping into the unknown.

Speaker A 00:40:12

And definitely the world of neuroplasticity was the unknown for me.

Speaker A 00:40:17

And so, yeah, I think it led me down that path of exploring something that needed to be explored in my personal and professional life.

Speaker B 00:40:29

I love that.

Speaker B 00:40:30

And I think the correlation of that with the framework of everything you've now spoken about in the last sort of half an hour or so in terms of the positives and how it affects people in their learning as well, you can sort of see how, like, say you'd no idea at the time as you enter into that world, but then that in its kind of full kaleidoscope of color and.

Speaker B 00:40:49

And sort of of understanding of it in the whole is.

Speaker B 00:40:52

Then there's a little bit of wonder there sometimes, isn't there, about how it all comes together?

Speaker A 00:40:56

Absolutely.

Speaker A 00:40:57

And, you know, if I go back to people that have learning challenges in their life, they actually don't feel confident.

Speaker A 00:41:04

And so this is, you know, can be a barrier for them.

Speaker A 00:41:09

And this is, you know, going back to that mental health piece.

Speaker A 00:41:12

They.

Speaker A 00:41:13

They feel that they are constrained.

Speaker A 00:41:16

You.

Speaker A 00:41:17

You talked about putting, you know, they feel like they are in a box because they're confident to explore new things because life has been challenging up until this point.

Speaker A 00:41:28

So, yeah, that confidence piece is really important.

Speaker A 00:41:32

And I know teachers everywhere really want their children to be confident and they will do all, you know, create experiences.

Speaker A 00:41:42

So children are confident.

Speaker A 00:41:44

But deep down, I think children with learning challenges do not feel that confidence to be independent learners.

Speaker B 00:41:54

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B 00:41:57

Is there a piece of advice you've been given or a piece of advice you might well give your younger self now?

Speaker B 00:42:02

Looking back, and I do always sort of caveat this with the fact that we often don't listen, that we wouldn't have listened to that in those earlier years, but.

Speaker B 00:42:09

Yeah, something you think would be appropriate this time?

Speaker A 00:42:13

Oh, it's.

Speaker A 00:42:15

It's really interesting.

Speaker A 00:42:16

I always thought I knew where my life was going.

Speaker A 00:42:21

I always thought this is the life I'm creating for myself, and this is where I see myself in the future.

Speaker A 00:42:26

I think what I would be telling my younger self now is that what we think we're going to do is not always what we're going to do and be open to the opportunity.

Speaker A 00:42:39

I think the idea that we absolutely have to have agency in our life.

Speaker A 00:42:47

We absolutely have to take steps towards a path.

Speaker A 00:42:51

I'm not saying here.

Speaker A 00:42:52

Let the world, you know, just take you where you lead.

Speaker A 00:42:55

You absolutely have to have goals and, And.

Speaker A 00:42:58

And agency, take steps forward to that path, and then be open to what opens up in front of you because it's not necessarily going to be what you thought it was.

Speaker B 00:43:13

That's so true, and I really love that.

Speaker B 00:43:16

And it's something I think we don't hear enough of so often.

Speaker B 00:43:20

And I think about some of the things that happened in my life.

Speaker B 00:43:23

As I said, I'm a musician, you know, I'm a music educator.

Speaker B 00:43:26

That's part of what I do.

Speaker B 00:43:27

But I'm also now a podcast.

Speaker B 00:43:29

I've been doing this since 2016.

Speaker B 00:43:31

And there was A moment we were actually doing a, a performance.

Speaker B 00:43:34

I think it was a World War II project we put together as part of an company I was working for.

Speaker B 00:43:39

And we did some radio interviews and I sat behind the microphone and I thought, there's something about this.

Speaker B 00:43:45

I really, I really like this.

Speaker B 00:43:47

And had no idea.

Speaker B 00:43:49

Five years later, you know, I'd been starting my own podcast.

Speaker B 00:43:51

The technology was such that people could do it on their own, they could have their own studios, they could do it from wherever.

Speaker B 00:43:56

And it's, and it's interesting and, and I think that it happened very organically and it happened without too much thought.

Speaker B 00:44:03

But like I say, there were steps it went in and learning and that kind of thing as well.

Speaker B 00:44:06

But yeah, I just, I love that concept that anything's possible, but you need both sides of that coin.

Speaker B 00:44:11

And I think that's often the thing that people, they, they miss.

Speaker B 00:44:15

Great advice there.

Speaker B 00:44:16

Is there a resource you'd like to share?

Speaker B 00:44:18

And this can be anything from a video, song, podcast, book, film, can be personal or professional, but something which has had an impact.

Speaker A 00:44:26

Look, I think the, the resource that's had the greatest impact for me in the last 15 years is definitely Barbara Arrowsmith Young's book, the Woman that Changed Her Brain.

Speaker A 00:44:41

Because it told me and taught me as an educator, as a parent, as a human being, that the brain can change and have enormous implications on not only your life, but the people around you.

Speaker A 00:44:54

It's really, really interesting.

Speaker A 00:44:57

She also has a TEDx talk which is kind of like a 12 minute chunk of her book.

Speaker A 00:45:03

But I really would encourage people to read the Woman that Changed Her Brain.

Speaker B 00:45:09

And I think that sort of literally hearing it from the people that have not only put it together, but sort of living it as it were, then that suddenly has a different thing than just sort of this is what I think, or this is whatever.

Speaker B 00:45:20

This is personal.

Speaker B 00:45:21

And with that comes a different, a different type of conversation and, and learning, I think.

Speaker A 00:45:26

Absolutely.

Speaker B 00:45:27

So obviously the acronym FIRE is really important to us here at Education on fire.

Speaker B 00:45:32

And by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience, and empowerment.

Speaker B 00:45:36

Is there one particular word that strikes you out of that or a combination?

Speaker B 00:45:40

What is it that first comes to sort of.

Speaker A 00:45:43

Yeah, first thing I, I want to talk about the word resilience first, I think.

Speaker A 00:45:48

And again, just in my personal, professional life, you hear it a lot about, you know, people need to be more resilient.

Speaker A 00:45:57

And it makes me think about the people with learning difficulties that turn up at school every day, do the work that they need to do every day turn up at work when things are challenging, that's resilience.

Speaker A 00:46:13

They are turning up, they are striving, they are trying to do their best.

Speaker A 00:46:17

And it can get better for them if, you know, with this concept of neuroplasticity.

Speaker A 00:46:23

But that is resilience, because they are actually stepping into fire.

Speaker A 00:46:29

They are literally every day going, you know, getting into their regular day.

Speaker A 00:46:34

So I think it's.

Speaker A 00:46:35

I like to put a different slant on that word, on resilience.

Speaker A 00:46:39

And the other thing, inspiration again.

Speaker A 00:46:42

I just talked about Barbara Arrowsmith Young and her work, but I think anyone that hears her story really can't come away but feel inspired by the work that she's done.

Speaker A 00:46:55

And then the participants that do the work are also inspiring because they are taking charge to change their lives.

Speaker B 00:47:04

I love that.

Speaker B 00:47:05

And the thing I really loved about that kind of resilience idea is the fact that so often these things have a perception of being like a.

Speaker B 00:47:15

A superman's cape or, or some sort of extraordinary thing.

Speaker B 00:47:19

And I think what you articulated there so brilliantly is the fact that it's just doing the thing.

Speaker B 00:47:23

You know, I'm going to show up, I'm going to do it, I'm going to keep doing it.

Speaker B 00:47:27

I'm going to do the best, I'm going to take the next step.

Speaker B 00:47:30

And it's that over and over again.

Speaker B 00:47:32

It's not the fact that the world's changed overnight.

Speaker B 00:47:34

I haven't suddenly come across something which is going to make a massive difference than it was yesterday, but the accumulation of all of those things and doing it over and over, which I guess is a perfect sort of segue into.

Speaker B 00:47:45

Into where we started.

Speaker B 00:47:46

Because that's essentially.

Speaker B 00:47:47

Essentially what it is that you're doing is part of Aerosmith.

Speaker B 00:47:50

Because it's just that, okay, now we know what we're trying to do.

Speaker B 00:47:53

This is how it's going to work.

Speaker B 00:47:54

This is what we're learning.

Speaker B 00:47:55

This is how we're going to try and put all these things together.

Speaker B 00:47:58

And each of those steps is going to sort of support your life going forward.

Speaker B 00:48:01

So, Debbie, thank you so much.

Speaker B 00:48:02

It's been absolutely fascinating.

Speaker B 00:48:04

As I said before, it's lovely to have proper conversations about these things so people can really hear and understand how all that works.

Speaker B 00:48:10

So for anyone who wants to find out more and learn more about this, where should they go?

Speaker A 00:48:15

They should go to our website.

Speaker A 00:48:16

It's Arrowsmith Ca.

Speaker A 00:48:19

And.

Speaker A 00:48:19

And we've got lots of information there.

Speaker A 00:48:22

Quite often we're accused of having too much information on there or contact us and you know, we can easily reach out.

Speaker A 00:48:29

But yeah, our website has got a lot of information.

Speaker B 00:48:32

Fantastic.

Speaker B 00:48:33

Thank you so much for sharing all this.

Speaker B 00:48:34

I hope there are so many people listening who suddenly have that sense of inspiration and feel like they can empower people moving forward.

Speaker B 00:48:40

So, yeah, keep up the great work.

Speaker A 00:48:42

Thank you so much.

Speaker A 00:48:42

Mark.

Speaker A 00:48:43

It's been a pleasure.

Speaker B 00:48:44

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a.