Transforming Language Acquisition: Insights from Wall Street English

Speaker A 00:00:00

What we're really trying to foster is at any time and anywhere you can access your class or your content, your choice, your convenience.

Speaker A 00:00:11

We create the space in the atmosphere and the network for you to make friends, for you to have peers, for those people to correct you and for you to learn from that.

Speaker A 00:00:22

How do we listen to you, how do we coach you?

Speaker A 00:00:25

And occasionally, how do we say to you, come on, Mark, bit more effort, you can do better, and then hold their hand as they go through that process.

Speaker A 00:00:34

A 7 or an 8 out of 10 is actually really good and allows you to take the next step.

Speaker A 00:00:40

And also when things do go wrong or you have a sense of.

Speaker A 00:00:44

I didn't quite get that.

Speaker A 00:00:46

That's okay.

Speaker A 00:00:48

That's a time to reflect and to learn as well.

Speaker A 00:00:51

Learning to take those little experiments, succeed, occasionally fail and learn from that.

Speaker A 00:00:57

Failure with somebody saying it's okay is crucial.

Speaker A 00:01:03

Where I get real inspiration is when I see ordinary people doing quite extraordinary things.

Speaker A 00:01:10

Somebody ordinary has actually done something extraordinary and that feels more within your own reach.

Speaker A 00:01:18

Right, I can do that.

Speaker A 00:01:20

Ultimately, it's.

Speaker A 00:01:22

It's your life, your responsibility, you know, take ownership of that responsibility.

Speaker A 00:01:28

And, and when you demonstrate that, yeah, if I can help you as a coach or a professor or a teacher, then I'm going to help guide you.

Speaker A 00:01:38

But you need to own it.

Speaker B 00:01:41

Hello.

Speaker B 00:01:41

That was James McGowan and he is from Wall Street English and they're a leading provider in hybrid English language education with over 350 learning centers in 35 Terr around the globe.

Speaker B 00:01:52

An amazing conversation about learning English, but also I wanted to mention the national association for Primary Education and their continued support and sponsorship of this show.

Speaker B 00:02:01

Really hope you love this conversation.

Speaker B 00:02:05

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast.

Speaker B 00:02:13

The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Speaker B 00:02:19

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors, share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Speaker B 00:02:27

Hi James, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast.

Speaker B 00:02:31

It's incredible to be able to speak to people from around the world.

Speaker B 00:02:34

It's one of the great things about being a podcaster and great to be able to speak to someone from within, within Europe as well, which is something we don't do as much as often across to America or in the uk.

Speaker B 00:02:43

So this is going to be a great kind of European experience as well as sort of the global effect that you have.

Speaker B 00:02:47

So, yeah, thanks so much for being here now.

Speaker A 00:02:49

Thank you, Mark, for The kind invitation and I'm quite excited to be here and originally from Ireland, so.

Speaker A 00:02:56

But obviously having spent the last 30 plus years living in Europe, I hope I can bring a more Eurocentric view to all this.

Speaker B 00:03:02

Fantastic.

Speaker B 00:03:03

So let's go into your journey in terms of Wall Street English, because I know you've sort of have different roles and you've kind of developed through the organization.

Speaker B 00:03:11

So take us on that journey first of all.

Speaker A 00:03:14

Well, actually the journey began as a teacher.

Speaker A 00:03:18

I just finished my PhD and I'd done the research for the PhD in Spain.

Speaker A 00:03:24

So as soon as I actually concluded the thesis, I came back out to Spain for personal reasons and to have a bit of fun.

Speaker A 00:03:32

And I literally at the beginning said, well, how am I going to pay the bills?

Speaker A 00:03:35

And I got into teaching because I'd enjoyed coaching while I was at university and I got myself qualified and said okay, this is good.

Speaker A 00:03:47

And it kind of fed back to, you know, when I was a child I was, I was born curious.

Speaker A 00:03:53

And my father would often say, and that's not that people stop and stare at you, that's that you can be, you know, very inquisitive around what's going on around you.

Speaker A 00:04:02

So that, that whole sense of what is that?

Speaker A 00:04:05

How do I learn about it?

Speaker A 00:04:07

How do I understand that?

Speaker A 00:04:08

I probably had all the way through my own personal studies, you know, from primary to doctorate.

Speaker A 00:04:15

And then I found like a light went on when I was teaching people.

Speaker A 00:04:19

I also got a tremendous amount of pleasure.

Speaker A 00:04:21

I was seeing them discover things and them going aha.

Speaker A 00:04:27

And me feeling really good about that.

Speaker A 00:04:29

So that living in that envelope of education has really guided me through most of my life and being very fulfilling.

Speaker A 00:04:37

So that was the birth of me and Wall street in terms of really enjoy being a teacher doing over 5,000 hours in the classroom and then progressively saying okay, well as I manage to influence the people in my classroom, how can I go beyond that and scale that and how can we make this work at a much higher level?

Speaker A 00:04:58

And then I got into what I would then call educational management.

Speaker A 00:05:02

I guess I did quite well, moved through a variety of roles, mostly mostly in Europe and then got a global remit in terms of the current role.

Speaker B 00:05:12

And how do you sort of find that?

Speaker B 00:05:15

You sort of talked about the light bulb going off and the enjoyment of seeing other people sort of have that experience as well.

Speaker B 00:05:22

How does that sort of work in that sort of non teachery role when you're just sort of empowering people like you say, in different roles in that slightly more sort of Managerial setting.

Speaker A 00:05:31

Yeah, it's very similar in the sense of I think I really enjoy coaching.

Speaker A 00:05:37

So I'm looking to really get my team to say, how do we help these individuals?

Speaker A 00:05:42

So what are we about?

Speaker A 00:05:44

What do I believe education should be about is saying, well, how do I help the learner do?

Speaker A 00:05:50

Because I fundamentally believe that if they're doing, they're really going to take in the information and put that information to work and be better versions of themselves.

Speaker A 00:06:01

So I take that philosophy into the management saying, well, if we target the learner and we say our task is to help that person achieve their outcomes rather than our outcomes as a business, that's a fundamental difference.

Speaker A 00:06:16

And then, okay, we believe in that the learner will acquire the language through acquisition, almost forming hypothesis and occasionally failing, because that's good.

Speaker A 00:06:29

As long as we help them with the analysis and the recovery and saying, well, what could you do better?

Speaker A 00:06:35

Then you're really empowering them with know how for.

Speaker A 00:06:39

For the future.

Speaker A 00:06:40

So you build a system around that.

Speaker A 00:06:42

You then say, okay, management, how do we build the facilities, the technology, the data that provides an environment where that person feels safe?

Speaker A 00:06:53

Safe, because they often feel vulnerable when they're expressing themselves in a second language.

Speaker A 00:06:58

And how do we provide the insight to them in the feedback where they can go, aha?

Speaker A 00:07:04

Then we're scaling the support.

Speaker A 00:07:07

And then finally we say, if you're educating people over a period of time, and that can be in our case, 12 to 15 months, but more broadly, 5, 10, 15 years, they're going to change in terms of what's happening in their lives for good or for bad, how they're feeling.

Speaker A 00:07:26

We really bring in that human connection to say, hey, Mark, I'm listening to you.

Speaker A 00:07:31

How can I help you?

Speaker A 00:07:33

And just be very aware of how to personalize that experience.

Speaker A 00:07:38

Because at different times, we're all in different places, that becomes a managerial challenge to say, well, how do I do that at scale?

Speaker A 00:07:47

And that's the curious part of me goes, well, actually, that's quite interesting.

Speaker A 00:07:51

How do we work that out?

Speaker B 00:07:53

And I love that because we have these type of conversations on the podcast, but it's often been within a school setting or something which is very sort of directional.

Speaker B 00:08:03

And I think to hear these same philosophies coming through from something which is slightly different than that sort of traditional setting is great because they're usually the key things that seem to make the biggest difference to both the students and the pupils and the people that are working within a school, whether it be a teacher or, say, those people Surrounding that.

Speaker B 00:08:22

So I think that crossover, knowing that it's that human connection, like say, meeting people where they are understanding who they are in those personal relationships, because then you're in a position to like, say, have that sort of know, like and trust idea to then support them in that sort of teaching itself.

Speaker A 00:08:37

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:08:38

So I, you know, we grew up in an educational system that normally says, please be obedient in the sense of this is your curriculum, this is your content, even down to, and this is your book.

Speaker A 00:08:48

And both the teacher and the student are kind of forced to follow and be obedient to that content.

Speaker A 00:08:56

And that kind of passive learning we just don't believe in.

Speaker A 00:09:00

We really want to say to people, yes, the subject matter in this case is English language and your ability to communicate in that.

Speaker A 00:09:06

But how do we help you form hypotheses?

Speaker A 00:09:09

How do we help you build your own know how and how do we get you to analyze and experiment with the language?

Speaker A 00:09:14

Because you're going to hear something new or in a different context or with different accents.

Speaker A 00:09:20

So if we, if we only train you to be expert or certified in the way you perform in English, kind of capping you versus giving you the skills to say, when you go to London and they have a different accent to this teacher, how are you going to respond?

Speaker A 00:09:38

Well, you'll have the tools that will help you to respond and in a way, you're empowering them for a much longer journey versus the 12 months that they may spend with this.

Speaker A 00:09:48

So that's an integral part of the way we approach our kind of education.

Speaker B 00:09:53

I really love that as a musician myself, and certainly when I'm teaching percussion as it goes through, I have exactly that same philosophy.

Speaker B 00:10:00

It's that kind of I can give you the nuts and bolts and we can learn this piece to showcase at a concert or to your parents or whatever.

Speaker B 00:10:07

But what I'm really interested in is giving you those skills and that understanding more widely.

Speaker B 00:10:12

So that when someone blue says, okay, you just come along and play in this band or the ensembles happening this term, can you get involved in that?

Speaker B 00:10:19

We don't need to necessarily spend extra time learning that particular piece because you have the skill set, the understanding and the sort of the, the scaffolding around you to, to take all of that into this new environment.

Speaker B 00:10:30

And yes, you know, we can support as best we can, but it just means that for now you've got that extra know how, but also taking it forward into either the next school or into your sort of university days or into your adult life.

Speaker B 00:10:41

You've kind of got everything that you need and you then can go back and work out how to do the next steps yourself and then you can get whatever help you might need.

Speaker B 00:10:48

But I think understanding that, it's great to hear that in that different context as well.

Speaker A 00:10:53

Yeah, I think if you, if you step back and look at things and say, well, if I can help people be mindful, be analyze what they're doing, look to solve problems, cooperate, then these are the skill sets that are really going to enable them in their future.

Speaker A 00:11:10

So yes, I can, I can speak to my teacher today and in the classroom, but what do I do in three years time when I'm in a board meeting and I have to do that presentation in English?

Speaker A 00:11:20

So I've already got the know how to be able to pull that off successfully.

Speaker A 00:11:25

So in that sense we're looking for, and we're focused on helping our learners solve for their learning challenges so that they can have tangible outcomes in the future.

Speaker A 00:11:37

Otherwise, what's the point?

Speaker A 00:11:39

Right?

Speaker B 00:11:39

Yeah, exactly that, exactly that.

Speaker B 00:11:42

And that's really what I love about these conversations is the fact that it's that sense of why are we doing this, what are we learning and why, why are we putting it in place and how is it going to affect you in the here and now, which is important.

Speaker B 00:11:53

And also that sort of progression going forward.

Speaker B 00:11:56

And I think however you can bring that into your learning experience is going to make a massive difference to how you want to go forward.

Speaker B 00:12:02

Because like you said, you know, we're taught to be obedient.

Speaker B 00:12:05

You know, you should know the answers, don't put your hand up, don't be too inquisitive.

Speaker B 00:12:08

Which is completely the opposite of we need to be and what we need to be doing going forward.

Speaker B 00:12:13

So I'm curious for those people that haven't sort of been involved in, understand anything that you've done before, what does it look like when, when they do get involved, you know, they sort of make that approach, they decide they want to sign up.

Speaker B 00:12:24

How does the, how does the study work?

Speaker B 00:12:26

How does it kind of get put into place and sort of like I said, how do you put all those things you've spoken about into that experience as well?

Speaker A 00:12:33

Sure.

Speaker A 00:12:34

Well, maybe just before that it's, it's kind of understanding where the learner comes from and what are the challenges you're trying to resolve for.

Speaker A 00:12:41

So we, we tend to teach mainly adults who are without any doubt, time poor.

Speaker A 00:12:48

So this is an additional effort.

Speaker A 00:12:50

How do you find the time and the commitment over a 12 month period to actually study and then you design a solution to meet that challenge equally.

Speaker A 00:13:01

They tend to be very competent, very capable in their own language.

Speaker A 00:13:07

But when it comes to learning the second language, they may feel vulnerable, they may feel foolish, and they definitely feel shy.

Speaker A 00:13:16

So you've got this combination of people who are time poor, busy with other parts of their lives and if you think about it, in many cases they probably spent five to seven years in the traditional education system in the country not being successful in English.

Speaker A 00:13:35

We design our system around well, how do we help the learner learn?

Speaker A 00:13:39

By doing.

Speaker A 00:13:40

Which is a question of saying you'll have self access, you'll be able to Access the program 24, 7, 365 where you want to access in terms of you can access from your browser, you can access from your phone, or you can come to one of our 320 learning centers across our now 35 territories.

Speaker A 00:14:00

So you providing them with convenience and taking away the excuse of it's difficult to do, let's make it easy to actually access the information.

Speaker A 00:14:11

Then it's really a question of saying do the learning on your own.

Speaker A 00:14:15

With our we've designed our approach and our methodology now over 50 years.

Speaker A 00:14:21

The structures built in learn bites of learning that are doable for people who are busy.

Speaker A 00:14:27

So it's normally around 30 to 60 minutes.

Speaker A 00:14:30

Give us 60 minutes of your time and then we confirm that learning in a classroom with a teacher or with a coach.

Speaker A 00:14:38

So there's self access combined with a classroom experience with the teacher and normally one to two other students.

Speaker A 00:14:46

So it's a very small reduced space.

Speaker A 00:14:49

What we're really trying to foster is at any time and anywhere you can access your class or your content, your choice, your convenience.

Speaker A 00:14:59

And we would prefer that you would do that with us in a physical environment because we create the space in the atmosphere and the network for you to make friends, for you to have peers, for those people to correct you and for you to learn from that.

Speaker A 00:15:14

And obviously to meet the teacher.

Speaker A 00:15:16

Because with the language you want to bring it alive.

Speaker A 00:15:19

This isn't a chemistry lab.

Speaker A 00:15:22

We want to bring this conversation alive because we know that when you go for that job interview or you're looking for a promotion, or you're looking for access to university, or you're looking for access to information online, or you want to travel, or you just want to feel more confident about yourself, it's the ability to speak and demonstrate it that produces all of those outcomes.

Speaker A 00:15:46

So you go from how do I help you learn and solve that difficulty to very tangible outcomes in your life.

Speaker A 00:15:53

And then on top of the learning methodology, the facilities, the platforms and the data, information and insight that we gain, I think the critical thing is how do we connect with you as a human?

Speaker A 00:16:07

So how do we listen to you, how do we coach you?

Speaker A 00:16:09

And occasionally, how do we say to you, come on, Mark, bit more effort, you can do better, and then hold their hand as they go through that process.

Speaker A 00:16:17

So I think we're very good at focusing in on what the learner needs.

Speaker A 00:16:21

We're aware of the outcomes they want to achieve, so we align on their objective.

Speaker A 00:16:28

We provide them with the methodology, we provide them with facilities, and we provide them with the human connection.

Speaker B 00:16:34

And how does that work related to the teen programs as well?

Speaker B 00:16:38

Is it the same philosophy, but obviously just sort of geared a little bit in that younger level, or is there sort of a different approach?

Speaker A 00:16:45

Yeah, it's the same approach.

Speaker A 00:16:47

I mean, a learner is a learner.

Speaker A 00:16:48

What we do is adopt the content to be relevant to a team.

Speaker A 00:16:52

So one of the key things around how we're now looking at our content development is saying, how do we incorporate technology and insight about the learner to provide them with content that is authentic and relevant to them?

Speaker A 00:17:05

Because you're just much more likely to engage.

Speaker A 00:17:08

And one of the key things we're trying to drive is engagement or time spent on learning.

Speaker A 00:17:15

So if someone gives one hour a week or three hours a week, then naturally the outcome is going to be different.

Speaker A 00:17:23

One of the key challenges, particularly with the adults, is saying, well, it's a Monday, so I can choose to watch a movie at home, I can choose to have coffee with my friends, I can choose to do many other things.

Speaker A 00:17:36

I need you to choose us to be able to help you.

Speaker A 00:17:40

We compete for their time in that sense.

Speaker B 00:17:44

And like you said, 50 years is a long time to.

Speaker B 00:17:47

To be going.

Speaker B 00:17:48

How has it changed?

Speaker B 00:17:49

I mean, obviously there's the technology, there's the online side of anything, but do you sort of find that the, the essence and like, say the core of all these things you've been speaking about is being the same, and then you're just adapting that in that way?

Speaker B 00:18:01

And I'm sort of thinking about AI and those sorts of things.

Speaker B 00:18:03

I know lots of people are thinking, oh, this is going to change the world, but I kind of think about it that the heart of what you do is the same.

Speaker B 00:18:09

You're just using it as a tool, much like when Google came along.

Speaker B 00:18:12

It's that kind of.

Speaker B 00:18:13

I don't need to Go to the library necess now I can just find it online.

Speaker B 00:18:16

But I still need it to be me.

Speaker B 00:18:17

I needed it to be the essence of who I am and how I want to connect and how I want to use that information to bring it through.

Speaker B 00:18:23

So I'm sort of curious on that part of your journey.

Speaker A 00:18:25

No, you're, you're absolutely right.

Speaker A 00:18:27

I mean it's now 72, so we're 52 years old in that sense.

Speaker A 00:18:32

The, the approach, this personalization and then this connection and your ability to demonstrate hasn't changed.

Speaker A 00:18:40

What has changed is we've gone from books and cassettes to now introducing AI into our course.

Speaker A 00:18:47

But the actual behaviors of the learners hasn't changed dramatically over those years.

Speaker A 00:18:52

So they have a certain amount of activity in terms of how often they will engage because they're time poor.

Speaker A 00:18:58

We know that if we can get people to engage with us for 100 to 120 hours a year, they're really going to make significant steps forward in their level.

Speaker A 00:19:08

And we also know that if they do 10 to 30, it hasn't worked out for them in terms of the value equation.

Speaker A 00:19:15

So I've seen five or six major changes in technology and content.

Speaker A 00:19:21

And yes, we have a very sophisticated platform and yes, we have great data insight into around how our learners are learning and what we need to change in and change out.

Speaker A 00:19:30

We're much more efficient in how we're able to do that today.

Speaker A 00:19:35

But that fundamental human behavior hasn't really changed.

Speaker B 00:19:40

And you sort of mentioned being in sort of 35 territories.

Speaker B 00:19:43

I mean, we're talking very sort of globally at that point.

Speaker B 00:19:47

So does the fact that you can have those outlets in that way help from a social point of view, a cultural point of view?

Speaker B 00:19:52

Because like I said, I guess that human to human connection has a certain amount of impact in that way.

Speaker A 00:19:58

Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker A 00:20:00

You know, typically our learning centers in Asia are bigger than they would be in Western Europe.

Speaker A 00:20:07

And people are more likely to go to the centers and actually be with their teachers compared to kind of Western Europe.

Speaker A 00:20:17

I think in times when I ask people why that is, they say, well, a lot of our students may be living in smaller flats and apartments and they're like, well, I want to go to a bigger space.

Speaker A 00:20:27

I want to meet people from the UK or the United States or Australia.

Speaker A 00:20:31

These are not things that I normally see in my everyday.

Speaker A 00:20:35

Whereas a French student or a Spanish student be like, well, you know, I see an Irish guy every day.

Speaker A 00:20:41

So there's that contrast of, you know, what kind of conditions and situations are people actually living in and what is slightly out of the normal for them?

Speaker A 00:20:51

And so we find, yes, in our Asian countries, they're more likely to go to their centers than they would in the rest of the world.

Speaker A 00:20:59

But in general, their behaviors in terms of time invested, overall, it's almost identical.

Speaker B 00:21:06

And how have you got about that sort of development to that number of places in terms of sort of, I suppose, technically sort of a business sense in terms of understanding how that works?

Speaker B 00:21:15

Because I think people will be interested in, you know, if I was coming to you, I might think, oh, it's a different experience.

Speaker B 00:21:21

And if it was someone one step removed or two step removed.

Speaker B 00:21:23

But I'm sure the philosophy is the key thing.

Speaker B 00:21:26

But how did you sort of go about thinking about expanding and then just making sure that that works, like you say, across the world?

Speaker A 00:21:32

Well, what we're sure of is that in each country the whole phenomenon of urbanization of more and more people working in cities and competing for white collar and above kinds of jobs drives the demand.

Speaker A 00:21:46

So we obviously, our first step is to say, is there a market?

Speaker A 00:21:49

What's happening in that market?

Speaker A 00:21:52

Then we have a very consolidated approach in terms of our methodology or educational methodology, and then how that converts into, how do we execute that from an operational perspective.

Speaker A 00:22:02

So very clear educational model, very clear business model, and then we look for the right partners in the territory to help us expand and develop on a local level.

Speaker A 00:22:13

So kind of boilerplate at this point and very consistent and genuinely very successful.

Speaker B 00:22:22

And in terms of this sort of very sort of idealistic, as in, you know, very much about what worked for you from an educational point of view, did that come from a teacher and education experience that you had?

Speaker B 00:22:35

Knowing that I don't like it this way, so therefore I want it to look another way, or having had a positive experience to sort of bring that in.

Speaker A 00:22:41

I think there's two parts to that.

Speaker A 00:22:43

There's always a good and a bad part to that.

Speaker A 00:22:45

I thought, let me go with the good.

Speaker A 00:22:46

I had the good fortune to have had a number of teachers, not necessarily one particular teacher who either in primary school or in grammar school, took the time to listen.

Speaker A 00:23:03

So I had a teacher who said to me, you're very busy with all of your sports activities and, and all the things that you're doing.

Speaker A 00:23:10

Let me help you organize your time.

Speaker A 00:23:14

So there was a man called Mr.

Speaker A 00:23:16

Bennett who sat me down and said, okay, Jim, what is you like to do?

Speaker A 00:23:19

Let's get that on your timetable first.

Speaker A 00:23:22

When are you less Busy and when are you more likely to study?

Speaker A 00:23:26

So just became very personal questions around.

Speaker A 00:23:29

It seems that normally between 9 and 12 in the morning you're prepared to sit down and work.

Speaker A 00:23:34

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:23:34

Okay, so let's build that timetable for you.

Speaker A 00:23:38

And then he would occasionally check in on me.

Speaker A 00:23:40

So that discipline, that kind of study planning, which actually at Wall street is one of our strong suits, that helped enormously equally.

Speaker A 00:23:51

And as you mentioned before, your musicianship.

Speaker A 00:23:54

I remember going to class, this is the negative story where you got 30 sweaty 11 year olds, one teacher with a piano, and it's a music class where you don't actually get an instrument.

Speaker A 00:24:07

And the gentleman spent a lot of time explaining what a stave was, what the notes were, what half notes were, what quarter notes were, and bah.

Speaker A 00:24:17

And in the end what it came down to was, I'm looking for four or five of you who are able to sing in the Christmas performance.

Speaker A 00:24:27

And the rest of us got to go and play football.

Speaker A 00:24:31

So my experience there was that's education happening to me and I don't understand it.

Speaker A 00:24:39

And something that sounds beautiful because as an 1112 year old, I'm enjoying music now feels like a burden.

Speaker A 00:24:48

And yet later, When I was 15 or 16, I had a friend who taught me to play some riffs on a guitar.

Speaker A 00:24:56

And because I enjoyed that, I then spent hours and hours practicing that.

Speaker A 00:25:01

So you have that, that's that contrast of something happening to you.

Speaker A 00:25:05

Are you taking part?

Speaker A 00:25:07

And I have those two really clear examples from my teachers at school where they're almost pushing you down that path of saying do it.

Speaker A 00:25:18

And then we talk about it.

Speaker B 00:25:19

Yeah, I, I love that.

Speaker B 00:25:21

Because the reason I became a musician was because when I went to secondary school, we had to learn an instrument.

Speaker B 00:25:27

Our music lessons for that first year were a wind band.

Speaker B 00:25:31

Effectively everybody had three lessons for a year.

Speaker B 00:25:34

They came into your primary school and kind of gave you the chance to blow something or hit something or scrape something or whatever.

Speaker B 00:25:40

And they sort of put you into these different categories.

Speaker B 00:25:43

But it was exactly that.

Speaker B 00:25:44

It was the fact that it wasn't about.

Speaker B 00:25:46

Well, you know, we did learn crotchets and quavers, as it were, but I was having proper lessons, we were doing these things and then we'd bring that together to see what the group environment would be within an ensemble.

Speaker B 00:25:56

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:25:56

And of course, people who were only just starting out, I would imagine it didn't say the world's most harmonious thing, but for those of us who were like, this is really amazing, I'm really enjoying this because I've experienced it and I'm actually producing.

Speaker B 00:26:08

It was a very different experience to even the traditional music lessons within class a year or two later when the curriculum kicks in and you have to do things a certain way.

Speaker B 00:26:16

And I think that's what I find this really sort of fascinating gray area of kind of that the restrictions are things that you might have to do within the education world, but also how you can then do that.

Speaker B 00:26:27

And like you say, your music lessons could.

Speaker B 00:26:29

Could have looked different in the way of another teacher doing it in a different way.

Speaker B 00:26:32

And I've had this conversation with traditional classroom teachers within some of the experiences I've had.

Speaker B 00:26:37

And I've.

Speaker B 00:26:37

It's always been that, you know, how do you get them engaged?

Speaker B 00:26:39

How'd you do it?

Speaker B 00:26:40

And it's always get them to do something, create a project, you know, find what music that they like to do.

Speaker B 00:26:46

You can still bring all those traditional things in and whatever you tick box things you have to cover these days, but you can do it in a certain way.

Speaker B 00:26:53

But starting, like I say, with the human, with the individuals, what their passions are, what their talents are, takes a bit more thought to begin with.

Speaker B 00:26:59

But once that's up and running, the experience for you as the teacher and everyone involved in the class is going to be completely different.

Speaker A 00:27:06

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:27:06

And here's the outcome.

Speaker A 00:27:08

So here you are some years later and you have a passion for music and an enjoyment for music that started there.

Speaker A 00:27:15

And that's.

Speaker A 00:27:15

That's education really working.

Speaker A 00:27:17

That, that's.

Speaker A 00:27:18

That makes me smile.

Speaker A 00:27:19

Yeah, that's got to be the objective.

Speaker B 00:27:21

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B 00:27:22

And like say when you have real world experience, then it really makes sense because you can, like I'm living proof, as it were.

Speaker B 00:27:28

And yeah, fantastic.

Speaker B 00:27:31

Is there any advice that you've been given that you'd like to share or maybe some advice you might give yourself, looking back as a.

Speaker B 00:27:37

Is a slightly more mature person.

Speaker B 00:27:39

And I do also caveat this with the fact that I know that when we're younger, we don't necessarily take that advice on board, but I still think it's important for us to hear it sometimes.

Speaker A 00:27:47

Well, I think, I think the frivolous answer is, Jim, you should have had more fun when you were younger.

Speaker A 00:27:52

I think a more considered piece of advice would be as you grow up in an educational system where you're trying to conform, you probably don't take the risks that you should do with your learning in terms of asking more questions versus how do I get a best score?

Speaker A 00:28:10

And I think over time I've Learned to say, don't try and be perfect, but like a 7 or an 8 out of 10 is actually really good and allows you to take the next step.

Speaker A 00:28:22

And also when things do go wrong or you have a sense of, I didn't quite get that.

Speaker A 00:28:28

That's okay, that's, that's a time to reflect and to learn as well.

Speaker A 00:28:33

So I, I think I could have been a bit more outgoing in my approach to my school studies versus trying.

Speaker B 00:28:44

To comply, I think for me as well.

Speaker B 00:28:48

And you certainly see a lot these days that people have that sense of I'm doing really well, I'm supposed to get 10 out of 10 and I've got 10 out of 10 for however long that is.

Speaker B 00:28:58

But with that comes a ridiculous AM of pressure because the only thing you feel like you can do at that point is fail.

Speaker B 00:29:04

And so even if, even if you explain to people, but it's, you know, all those things you said about ask questions, be inquisitive or whatever, you kind of always have that sense of there's only one way now.

Speaker B 00:29:13

And I think actually just framing everything or even the way that you assess things or however you sort of set up the environments within a learning experience can be different.

Speaker B 00:29:24

Like say by promoting this idea of asking questions and it being a different way of learning, I think is better for everybody generally and certainly for a well being point of view.

Speaker B 00:29:34

I think so often it's such a tricky thing for so many people.

Speaker A 00:29:38

Yeah, the well being and the mindfulness of that is important.

Speaker A 00:29:41

So you know, why, why would you have 14 to 17 year olds under so much pressure?

Speaker A 00:29:46

Or equally in our case where we have our adult learners who are saying I need to get this promotion or I need to get this job and it's dependent upon my level of English.

Speaker A 00:29:58

Okay, let us help, let's calm down, let's get good, let's get better, let's do the best.

Speaker A 00:30:04

But it's a process of saying, how do I go from A to B to C to D and not just focus on the ultimate outcome of that job?

Speaker A 00:30:13

That pressure is just not going to be healthy for the vast majority of people.

Speaker A 00:30:18

Right.

Speaker A 00:30:18

So learning to take those little experiments, succeed, occasionally fail and learn from that failure with somebody saying it's okay is crucial.

Speaker B 00:30:30

And I think also it's that sense of enjoying that learning experience, isn't it?

Speaker B 00:30:35

So I think from everything that you've said today, it's that understanding that we're creating this overall sort of melting pot of learning and understanding and helping you in your life Generally, which like, like you said, then becomes, you know, whatever that outcome is, even if it's a big outcome that you do succeed in, or as we know, you know, there's many different parts to what ultimately is something that you're after.

Speaker B 00:30:55

When I say whether it's that promotion, whether it's a different one, whether it's a conversation, it takes you in a different career, whatever that happens to be.

Speaker B 00:31:02

But I think when you can step back enough, like I say, take the time and understanding that it's just about what conversation am I having today, who am I speaking to, how am I doing it, what am I learning and actually being present enough to be able to do that.

Speaker B 00:31:14

And you know, sometimes it sounds very cliche, but I think it very much if you don't go down that route, then all you're going to do is make life harder for yourself.

Speaker B 00:31:22

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:31:22

So it's that process of doing the step by step work.

Speaker A 00:31:25

You got to put the time in, you got to make the effort, but when you do and you create that kind of tiered environment I was describing about, let's focus on the learner, let's make sure we have the environment and facilities and technology there to support.

Speaker A 00:31:39

And then around that put great coaches, great educators, then we're likely to see advancement, we're likely to see creativity, we're going to see innovation, we're going to see cooperation, and those are really powerful, tangible outcomes.

Speaker A 00:31:55

So let's work towards that.

Speaker A 00:31:56

But that's not going to happen tomorrow and it's not going to happen without taking a risk.

Speaker B 00:32:01

And I think also from, from an organizational point of view or business point of view, I think everything then becomes exciting, doesn't it?

Speaker B 00:32:08

Because like you say, you don't know what it's going to look like in 10 years or if in 5 years time.

Speaker B 00:32:13

But you know that all those things that are underpinning what you're about will help you, take you in whatever direction it needs to go in.

Speaker B 00:32:18

And I think from a learning point of view, it's the same thing.

Speaker B 00:32:21

You know, I don't know all the answers now.

Speaker B 00:32:23

I don't even know if it's English I need to be studying in five years, it's another language.

Speaker B 00:32:27

But I know that process and what is important to me and I know I can find that, that route when I need to get there.

Speaker B 00:32:33

And I think there's a certain amount of confidence that comes within that.

Speaker A 00:32:36

Yeah, so.

Speaker A 00:32:38

And I think what you then find is that the learner saying, I'm doing this, I Can actually, in our case, I can hear the difference.

Speaker A 00:32:48

I can see the difference when I'm presenting at work.

Speaker A 00:32:52

I can see the difference as I'm writing an email.

Speaker A 00:32:55

It's making a real tangible change to me that again reinforces that energy to say, well, shall I study tonight or not?

Speaker A 00:33:05

Shall I go to my local center or not?

Speaker A 00:33:07

It becomes self fulfilling in the sense of, well, well, of course I should.

Speaker A 00:33:12

I can, I can feel the difference then, then you're winning.

Speaker B 00:33:16

And I think then you become proactive in your own life.

Speaker B 00:33:19

And I think that then spills into different areas as well.

Speaker B 00:33:22

Like you say, whether you're going to the center to help you learn this particular thing.

Speaker B 00:33:26

But then, you know, maybe you're going to the gym, maybe you're deciding to cook rather than go out or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker B 00:33:31

And I think it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in a positive way, which is I really, I really like how these sort of things sort of become apparent.

Speaker B 00:33:39

Is there a resource you'd like to share?

Speaker B 00:33:42

And this can be personal or professional, but anything from a video, song, podcast, film and anything at all, but something you think would be interested, related maybe to what you said?

Speaker A 00:33:51

I think, you know, I.

Speaker A 00:33:55

Some years ago I was locked in the house for, I think it's about two weeks because I had in Spanish baricella, but in English I think it's chickenpox.

Speaker A 00:34:03

And while I was scratching myself, I picked up a book by Umberto Eco which is called Focal Spendulum.

Speaker A 00:34:11

And I was astonished by the amount of learning that was in that book in terms of the intertwined stories, the kind of physical laws governing the swinging of a pendulum, linking that to the Crusades and the Knights Templar and the absolute beauty of the prosecution.

Speaker A 00:34:29

And as I read through that, and I had time because I was unfortunately, I was going, wow, look, look at what one person can construct.

Speaker A 00:34:38

And I thought, this, this is, Jim, open the door with this in terms of your own development and your own learning that you can incorporate so much more into your own life journey.

Speaker A 00:34:50

So I was, I was in the end very grateful for having caught the chickenpox.

Speaker B 00:34:54

Yeah, well, there's a whole other podcast about how that works.

Speaker A 00:35:01

But equally, when I see great sports people, great musicians really performing at their highest level, I go, wow.

Speaker A 00:35:11

That I find astonishing versus inspiring.

Speaker A 00:35:14

What I find inspiring about them is their commitment and their work ethic that goes behind it.

Speaker A 00:35:21

I go, well, they're naturally more talented, but they still have to do the work.

Speaker A 00:35:26

And they're creating a series of emotions in me As I watch them, which I'm eternally grateful for, but it's more admiration.

Speaker A 00:35:34

Where I get real inspiration is when I see ordinary people doing quite extraordinary things.

Speaker A 00:35:41

So, you know, recently I met a gentleman from Egypt who'd studied in one of our Wall street learning centers in Jeddah.

Speaker A 00:35:49

And he'd begun in the kind of beginner to intermediate level.

Speaker A 00:35:54

He finished the course and here at proficiency level, as it were, and there he was negotiating to acquire the rights to open the business in Egypt.

Speaker A 00:36:04

And I went, that, that's amazing.

Speaker A 00:36:06

For him, you've gone from this language capability and now you've actually come here to negotiate in that language the ability to open a business in your home country.

Speaker A 00:36:17

Chapel.

Speaker A 00:36:19

Well done, sir.

Speaker A 00:36:22

And, and that was, you know, that's.

Speaker A 00:36:23

Those are those little examples that you can run into every day in your life where you go, somebody ordinary has actually done something extraordinary.

Speaker B 00:36:31

Yeah.

Speaker A 00:36:32

And, and that if that feels more within your own reach.

Speaker A 00:36:36

Right.

Speaker A 00:36:37

I, I can do that.

Speaker B 00:36:39

I think that's true.

Speaker B 00:36:40

And I've never heard that kind of version of talking about it in that way before, which I think is so, so important and, and so, so true because it's like, say, the, the idea of I can see this is brilliant and it's completely out of my reach as opposed to, I can see how that works for them, even if it's not my journey.

Speaker B 00:36:59

But there's something within my life which actually maybe that would work.

Speaker B 00:37:02

And it does fit beautifully into our acronym and a FIRE with inspiration, feedback, resilience and, and empowerment.

Speaker B 00:37:09

Is there anything else within those words that kind of strikes you in, in terms of, you know, what speaks to you at that time?

Speaker A 00:37:16

I think the greatest feedback I got was when I, when I was in my first year at university doing my geology and, and I was relatively arrogant and confident in myself about, I'm going to be really good at this.

Speaker A 00:37:28

And I was given a mapping problem that I couldn't solve and I got frustrated and went to this, my professor and said, tell me the answer.

Speaker A 00:37:38

And he responded with, there's the door, but if you do come up with solutions, please come back.

Speaker A 00:37:46

So I came back the following Friday afternoon and the gentleman spent three hours with me going over my solutions.

Speaker A 00:37:55

And that was an amazing experience.

Speaker A 00:37:57

And his reminder to me was, always come with a solution, you will run into difficulties, think about it, and then I can help.

Speaker A 00:38:07

And that's all that's just stayed with me.

Speaker A 00:38:09

My sense is that was a superb piece of coaching, both on a human level, because he understood the person at the time he took me down a few steps in terms of my arrogance.

Speaker A 00:38:20

Wonderful.

Speaker A 00:38:22

And he educated me and that gift has stayed with me.

Speaker A 00:38:26

So that's come back with a solution.

Speaker A 00:38:28

Would be the best piece of feedback I think I've ever received.

Speaker B 00:38:33

I really, I really love that.

Speaker B 00:38:34

And I think that the, the really key thing there about the learning and the education being two sides of maybe the same coin.

Speaker B 00:38:42

But I think understanding how that fits in the rain for you in any given circumstance, any given subject, whatever age you happen to be.

Speaker B 00:38:49

Because like you say that that philosophy could have been given to someone at primary school in, in, in that particular understanding as well as into the secondary, like, say, and into university or even beyond, if you're managing somebody.

Speaker B 00:39:02

Because I think as soon as that switch is put on, then you, you take ownership then of not only your learning, but what you want to do and how you want to show up and how you want to relate to people who are all kind of your mentors in many way, because they can all offer you things in different ways.

Speaker A 00:39:17

Yeah, I mean, ultimately it's, it's your life, your responsibility, you know, take ownership of that responsibility.

Speaker A 00:39:25

And when you demonstrate that, yeah, if I can help you as a coach or a professor or a teacher, then I'm going to help guide you.

Speaker A 00:39:35

But you need to own it.

Speaker A 00:39:37

And I think that's a key, integral to what we try to do at Wall street and say it's your course, your time, your investment, and now allow us to help you.

Speaker B 00:39:49

I think that.

Speaker B 00:39:50

Allowing you to help that, that's.

Speaker B 00:39:52

I love that framing.

Speaker B 00:39:53

And I think it's.

Speaker B 00:39:55

It's definitely something, something I'm.

Speaker B 00:39:57

I'm going to take that forward into, into some of the teaching that I do as well.

Speaker B 00:40:01

And it just reminded me also of something I was just thinking about last week, which was the fact that very often I get on that kind of.

Speaker B 00:40:08

We've got limited time, especially in a music lesson, it's half an hour a week.

Speaker B 00:40:11

You know, there's so much else going on around what you're doing, and I need to make sure you've got this information that we're making the most of every minute.

Speaker B 00:40:17

And then I just remind myself of what it's like as a parent, and it's that kind of.

Speaker B 00:40:21

I'm so.

Speaker B 00:40:21

Especially when they were small, which was a few years ago now, but it wasn't about teaching them, it's about sharing your life with them and a lot of those learning experiences and the things that they just become aware of because of the Way that you talk and the way that you go about what you're doing becomes part and parcel of what they're learning naturally.

Speaker B 00:40:36

And I think taking that pressure off a little bit is something which has been key for me as well.

Speaker B 00:40:41

And it just sort of struck me then from, from what you were saying.

Speaker B 00:40:44

So let's finish off then.

Speaker B 00:40:46

I'm curious about why Wall street is the name.

Speaker B 00:40:50

Is there?

Speaker B 00:40:50

What's the history, history between that and then.

Speaker B 00:40:52

And then we can, we can finish off with making sure people know where to go and find out more about it.

Speaker A 00:40:57

Yeah, look, Wall Street, Wall Street.

Speaker A 00:40:59

English I, you know, it was a company where the founder was working on the business, late 60s, early 70s.

Speaker A 00:41:06

He chose that name based on how he perceived the world was moving at that time.

Speaker A 00:41:11

Right.

Speaker A 00:41:12

So the idea of Wall street being associated with professional development, being successful, the place to be, you know, I guess looking back now, 50 years on, would you choose that name?

Speaker A 00:41:27

Maybe.

Speaker A 00:41:28

Maybe you do something different.

Speaker A 00:41:30

But, you know, that's the name of the business.

Speaker A 00:41:33

It's now a very well known brand.

Speaker A 00:41:35

And like lots of brands from the past, when you actually listen to the name, you're like, really, most people just choose their own surname.

Speaker A 00:41:43

So, you know, the Taylor School of English.

Speaker A 00:41:47

But in our case, our founder decided to choose Wall Street.

Speaker B 00:41:51

And where should people go to find out everything they need to know about getting involved and more about the company?

Speaker A 00:41:58

Well, you can obviously go to wallstradingniche.com e.

Speaker A 00:42:02

G.

Speaker A 00:42:02

Each territory in which we operate, you can go to their websites.

Speaker A 00:42:06

And in most major capitals and large cities in the 35 territories in which we operate, you'll find a Wall street center.

Speaker A 00:42:13

So you'd be very welcome to come in and visit the center and get to know the wonderful staff.

Speaker B 00:42:18

Amazing.

Speaker B 00:42:19

Thank you so much for all those insights and that inspiration.

Speaker B 00:42:23

I think for me it's always about finding the personality and the essence of what a company is that I love about the podcast because you can go and look at the website, you can see everything that's on there.

Speaker B 00:42:33

But there's something about the human contact and being able to talk, like I say, whether it's just talking about the name as opposed to the actual heart of what, what the philosophies are behind it.

Speaker B 00:42:42

So, James.

Speaker B 00:42:42

Yeah.

Speaker B 00:42:42

Thank you so much for joining us and I really appreciate your time.

Speaker A 00:42:45

No, it's been a pleasure being here.

Speaker A 00:42:46

Thank you very much.

Speaker B 00:42:48

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.